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Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two
Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two (The Hobbit)
Chapter III: A Short Rest
Chapter IV: Over Hill and Under Hill
Rules
I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:
Chapter III: A Short Rest
Chapter IV: Over Hill and Under Hill
Rules
I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:
- Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a blind date with Gollum at the Mordor Fried Warg Emporium. I highly recommend the Mildewed Troll Innards (a deep, earthy dish, with plenty of flavour), and Boiled Nazgul Backside (light and airy, what it lacks in substance it makes up for in its sharp, stabbing taste that will stay with you long after you've left).
- There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources.
- There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.
- If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com.
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For Chapter 3, I was struck by the utter civility of the dialogue between Thorin and Elrond. I mean, I read it quickly, but I just can't help but compare it to the movie, since it's so fresh in my mind still. The hostility of the dwarves toward the elves is so dominating in the movie, but this is the worst I see in the text:
"He [Bilbo] loved elves, though he seldom met them; but he was a little frightened of them too. Dwarves don't get on well with them. Even decent enough dwarves like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think), or get annoyed with them. For some elves tease them and laugh at them, and most of all at their beards."
Then, just after:
" 'Thank you!' said Thorin a bit gruffly; ..."
Is there background hatred I'm missing from other sources? Perhaps it's just the English penchant for understatement that's coming through.
As for Chapter 4, I love the Goblin names for the swords, Beater (Glamdring, "Foehammer") and Biter (Orcrist, "Goblin-cleaver"). Of course the goblins wouldn't call them by their elven names, but the names just fit in so well with those elven names that it makes me smile.
I'm just getting warmed up - maybe I'll have something more insightful to say next week.
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secret lovehate relationship is mostly an invention of Peter Jackson's. Certainly there was animosity between the dwarves and the elves regarding the fall of Doriath (Elu Thingol asked the dwarves to set the Silmaril in a necklace, they did, but then decided they'd rather keep it so they murdered him, which caused the protection around Doriath to fall and it to be destroyed, so, you know, awkward). But that was ramped up to over 9000 for the films. The Galadrhim also get a bit tetchy about letting Gimli in, but, on the flip side, the elves of Hollin definitely used to trade with Moria, and it's possible that Thorin himself may have traded with the elves of the Grey Havens, given where the Blue Mountains are located.But Elrond was a pretty open-minded sort of dude, and I think Thorin's beef with Thranduil was primarily that he didn't want to share his treasure, and he got locked in a cell for his trouble.
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I'm warm and cozy in my bed and can't be arsed to, uh, get my copy of The Hobbit, but am I right in saying that in the book the elves didn't do a movie!Thranduil but had instead arrived too late?
(p.s. I swear I'm not a rando; just saw this discussion linked over on tumblr and rejoiced)
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There are different houses of dwarves, just as there are different types of elves, all with their own complex histories. I do get why that might be a bit much for your average blockbuster movie viewer, though, but it is a tad disappointing when all that complex history gets über simplified for the sake of the film.
I can't find the specific reference at the moment, but my brain is a bit fried. I think they may have sort of imported the whole Thranduil and his Apathetic Moose of Doom™ scene from a comment in the UT on how after the battle of Azanulbizar, even though they were camped on the edge of the Golden Wood and had wounded there was no help from the Galadhrim.
Welcome! :D *makes zombie hands* JOOOOOIIIIIIN USSSSS.
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The thing is, though, that if the costume department managed to come up with such diverse and wonderful costumes for the dwarves, it's really more a matter of PJ's (and Pippa Boyens, and Fran Walsh's) directorial decision to over-simplify the history of ME. Which is also why I'll never believe it when people say that they know and love Tolkien's oeuvre. I mean, in that Empire interview only Richard Armitage (bless him) managed to come up with trivia, and Armitage came out with the Nauglamir. He referred to that with its earlier name -- Nauglafring, which just DELIGHTS ME UTTERLY BECAUSE HE'S MUCH A GEEK ABOUT TOLKIEN AS WE ARE. o/////
Er, sorry for going off on a tangent. On the same note, though, what did you think of the decision to keep Azog alive in the movie? I sort of understand it in a Hollywood-logic kind of way, that they wanted to imbue Thorin with even more 'epic' a personal narrative, by giving him another, more immediate protagonist in the movie. But I also hate it, because it reduces the complexity of the dwarves' stories to All About Thorin And His Dwarvely Angst.
My copy of UT is not even on the same continent as me right now, so I'll take your word for it! That does make Celeborn seem like a bit of a petty dick, lol. I know their kindred sacked your first home way back in the First Age, but seriously man.
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I do understand the decision to simplify, though. The chief complaint I've heard against Tolkien is that there's just too much density (WHICH IS RIDICULOUS. HE MADE DRAWINGS OF THE CARPET PATTERNS IN NUMENOR. NO AMOUNT OF DETAIL IS TOO MUCH), and you can tell the essence of the story without all of the interesting history – it's just not as rich. I do firmly believe that Weta workshop are geeks of the best and highest order, though, with the amount of beautiful work they put in – and I'd agree that I would've liked to see more geeky trivia from PJ & co.
Everytime Richard Armitage gets geeky I pretty much die. I can think of no bigger turn on, tbh, than a man knowing his Silmarillion. :P
My biggest complaint with the film was Azog, actually. I just felt like it was a bit unnecessary – we already have the storyline of the actual Hobbit, and then the White Council storyline (which presumably will include Gandalf ousting Sauron from Dol Goldur - and possibly finding Thráin, because the timelines have been wonkified like whoa). I thought that between the two there was plenty to go on, and the Azog storyline just bogged everything down. The thing about Thorin's angst-o-rama is that there was already loads to go on. He already was on a personal mission to reclaim Erebor if you wanted to talk about motivation (and I loved the expanded emphasis on his motives in the film versus the more simplified 'we want our gold back' motive Bilbo records), and, if they do include the finding of Thráin, there's ample opportunity to throw in a second bundle of angst. PLUS you have him coming into contact with Thranduil who he now also has a Personal Vendetta™ with, so it's all just a bit too much. I get that they wanted a named protagonist for the climax of the film, I suppose, but I wonder if it wouldn't have worked better to split it in two as they'd originally planned, and cut the Azog line altogether. After all, there was Bolg in the book, who could have fulfilled some of the same role, only with more canon.
That said, Bilbo throwing himself at the orc to save Thorin, and then the hug did funny things to my heart, so... :P
I think the Galadhrim are just really xenophobic and insular (as far as elves go). They have a pretty bad rep too – the Rohirrim are all wary of the woods too, aren't they? 'Course the Elven kingdoms of the first age were pretty closed off too – Gondolin being the obvious example of this being taken to extremes. I suspect if a similar situation were to have occurred near Gondolin, Turgon might not have come out to lend aid either.
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