sigridhr | Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two

Entry tags:

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two (The Hobbit)
Chapter III: A Short Rest
Chapter IV: Over Hill and Under Hill

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a blind date with Gollum at the Mordor Fried Warg Emporium. I highly recommend the Mildewed Troll Innards (a deep, earthy dish, with plenty of flavour), and Boiled Nazgul Backside (light and airy, what it lacks in substance it makes up for in its sharp, stabbing taste that will stay with you long after you've left).
There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources.
There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.
If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com.

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 18th January 2013 to Friday 25th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on.

Threaded | Flat

From my book discussion notes:

Bilbo asking, when they first see the Misty Mountains in the distance, if that is the Mountain, is still one of my very favorite parts of the book. <3

I blame the tra-la-la-lally song for the fact that I never really did like Tolkien's Elves very much. (Well, except when I was fifteen. But all girls are obsessed with Elves when they're fifteen, surely?)

Trivia from The Annotated Hobbit (everyone get a copy, this book is amazing): Tolkien originally tried calling the Elves Gnomes, on account of the etymology (Greek gnome/gnosis), but the popular conception of Gnomes as little people with pointy hats killed that for him.

I was quite surprised at how articulate the goblins are until I remembered that the practically-speechless Orcs are an artifact of the movies; in the books, they talk quite a lot and are fairly well-spoken. (Tolkien explains in the appendices that he cleaned up their language quite a bit for publication.)

Also, wow this moves along. Chapter Four and to the Great Goblin already?

Chapter 3: The 'high' elves of the West.

I'd forgotten how ridiculously tricksy the road is to Rivendell. I wonder how Elrond came across it in the first place?

"Hmmm! it smells like elves!" thought Bilbo.
The valley reeked of Herbal Essences and weed.

Tra-la-la-lally. Oh, boy. I maintain that this was actually Lindir, pissed off his face, who was singing a positively obscene ditty, that Bilbo later politely edited for posterity. It's the only way I can cope with this.

"Well, well!" said a voice. "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony. Isn't it delicious!"
"Most astonishing and wonderful!"
The elves have to be stoned. Seriously. Elrond was clearly feeding them all special lembas.

"Elves know a lot and are wondrous folk for news." AKA. they gossip like bunch of little old ladies and they'll tell you all about who's doing what with who if you'll just stand still long enough. The White Council was just 90% Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel reminiscing over that time Glorfindel got so pissed he was found naked by Turgon trying to sail to Valinor in a fountain.

I like the description of Elrond as embracing elements from all the races (save Hobbits) - fair as an elf-lord, wise as a wizard, venerable as a king of dwarves – and of course the nod to his human ancestry.

Chapter 4: Bad things always happen in the Misty Mountains. Always.

You know, the Mountains are weirdly sentient. Caradhras in LotR almost has a will of its own – it certainly ousts them from the mountain effectively, and here you have the stone giants that go frolicking in the thunderstorm. I haven't anything intelligent to say on that point - I just find it odd.

"We shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football."
Let's take a moment to appreciate the fact that the dwarves apparently play football. I WOULD WATCH THAT.

Dwarvish footy hooligan chants.
"Build a bonfire, build a bonfire,
put Thranduil on the top,
stick the elves all in the middle,
and burn the fucking lot!"

"T-H-O, R-I-N
Stuck in barrels and still we'll win,
with a nick nack paddywhack give your dog a bone,
Thranduil you can fuck off home."

"Then he dreamed that the floor of the cave was giving way, and he was slipping – beginning to fall down, goodness knows where to."
You know, I have to say, I was a bit annoyed with the fact that PJ took this for the films instead of just opening the back wall. I suppose it was probably more dramatic or whatever, but it was so damn implausible. To have them all fall down that chute, fight the goblins, fall down again, have a 200+ lb goblin fall on them, and all be totally okay just went beyond my ability to suspend disbelief. I know it's a film and yadda, yadda, but really. They should all be dead.

All the whipping just reminds me of this.

"in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them."
I wonder where this is?

Gandalf's babysitter headcount makes me so happy.

Cannot wait for Riddles in the Dark. :)

Some more comments from Professor Olsen's "Exploring the Hobbit."

Olsen actually defends the "tra-la-la-lally" song, and this is how he does it. We know from the rest of the text that Elves are not bubbleheaded lunatics, even if that is the impression you would draw from their song alone. So how do you take the song? He argues that Tolkien is trying very hard (and possibly not quite succeeding) to get across the joy of Elves.

Pretty much the whole song is statements of the glaringly obvious, along with questions they already know the answers to. It's a kind of joke, teasing Bilbo and the Dwarves as they ride along. Every stanza ends in a laugh, after all.

What Tolkien is trying to get across, Olsen argues, is that Elves find everything in the world equally delightful: the Dwarves' seriousness, Bilbo on his pony, the smoking fire, the running river, the leaves on the trees. This in contrast to the epic tragic history which is only implied in The Hobbit but which we know to exist. Put that way, yes, I can find it a little bit moving. Until I read the actual song again and want to stab something.

(Olsen also contrasts the Elves' song with the Goblin song in the next chapter. They're both songs of utter delight, with stanzas that end in a laugh, except the Elves are taking delight in the world around them and the Goblins are taking delight in the capture, torment, and eventual death of the Dwarves. Another argument for Orcs as corrupted Elves, I think.)

Alternatively, someone back in the early days of the interwebs came up with this explanation, which I like quite a lot.

I'm really enjoying re-reading the book so far. I've always preferred LOTR, but I will always have a soft spot for the Hobbit because my mother read it to me when I was in elementary school, and it's one of her favorite books. I'm going to steal the poor ancient copy she has and keep it for myself at some point, but I don't want it to get thrown out by accident.

For Chapter 3, I was struck by the utter civility of the dialogue between Thorin and Elrond. I mean, I read it quickly, but I just can't help but compare it to the movie, since it's so fresh in my mind still. The hostility of the dwarves toward the elves is so dominating in the movie, but this is the worst I see in the text:

"He [Bilbo] loved elves, though he seldom met them; but he was a little frightened of them too. Dwarves don't get on well with them. Even decent enough dwarves like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think), or get annoyed with them. For some elves tease them and laugh at them, and most of all at their beards."

Then, just after:

" 'Thank you!' said Thorin a bit gruffly; ..."

Is there background hatred I'm missing from other sources? Perhaps it's just the English penchant for understatement that's coming through.

As for Chapter 4, I love the Goblin names for the swords, Beater (Glamdring, "Foehammer") and Biter (Orcrist, "Goblin-cleaver"). Of course the goblins wouldn't call them by their elven names, but the names just fit in so well with those elven names that it makes me smile.

I'm just getting warmed up - maybe I'll have something more insightful to say next week.

I can't believe how quick and easy it was for them to reach Rivendell, compared to in Fellowship. And Elrond features a lot less in this than I remembered (I suppose the movie is clouding my memory of it).

When Tolkien wrote this, I assume he hadn't worked out the the history of the dwarf/elf relationship yet? Because it seemed like the only reason the dwarves didn't like the elves here is because the elves teased them and mocked their beards? And Thorin is basically civil and even polite to Elrond; he even says that he'll wield Orcrist with honour.

It was a hard path and a dangerous path, a crooked way and a lonely and a long.
This line just seems really strange to me. I don't really have anything to say about it, it's just odd.

Fili and Kili: they usually got these sorts of jobs (when everybody could see that it was absolutely no use sending Bilbo)
Poor Fili, Kili and Bilbo being the skivvies of the group!

It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them
Given when this was written and Tolkien's experiences in WWI, this really seems to be setting out to paint the goblins in the worst light possible. Yes, they can make clever things, but they don't seem to have a shred of positive purpose for it. I suppose it gave the reader a way to associate them with evil/inhumanity in the present? That's one of the things I like about Tolkien's writing in this - when you're reading, there's often just little references or phrases that pull the story back to the present and strike a chord with you, so that it all feels relevant, instead of just sheer fantasy.

It's true, it's crazy that we're 4 chapters in and have basically covered a large chunk of the film. Although I did really enjoy all the extra stuff in the film so I guess it's all good!

I love this part:

"Boulders, too, at times, came galloping down the mountain-sides, let loose by the midday sun upon the snow, and passed among them (which was lucky), or over their heads (which was alarming)"

It just makes me laugh every time I read it. I can just picture Bilbo's (particularly Martin Freeman's Bilbo) eyes just gradually widening as these great hunks of rock go over his head. But let's not talk about how much I love Bilbo, I'll be here ALL DAY.

Also I love Gandalf counting dwarves like an over-worked nanny or something.

And I can see a running theme of Bilbo being knocked out a lot during major events (someone has a touch of the old Arthur Pendragon brand of being-unconscious-while-important-stuff-happens I think)

Okay, noob entering.

Was I the only one who enjoyed the Elves' song? I rather liked the tra-la-lally! I felt like they were giving some kind of lightness of heart to the travelers, and while it's out of usual character for the elves, it's kind of fitting in the scene? I haven't read the LoTR trilogy in nearly ten years so I'm rusty in the details of how they /should/ behave, but it seemed...nice. And Bilbo definitely felt its effects as it lifted his weary spirits.

I also have to comment on the goblins' dialogues, because I expected a lot of crudeness in their language (probably because I'm so used to that in the movies), so when they started speaking full and proper sentences and sang songs (albeit not friendly songs), my eyebrows rose very high. Books are always better.

I have to say, the differences between the book and the movie are surprising. I guess for movie purposes they made certain changes, but I prefer the book's approach--and it makes a lot more sense.

I think this wasn't a very useful comment and I sort of just rehashed a lot of things others have already said, but that's what I feel so far~

I know I mention this before about Galadriel wanting for Gandalf to be the leader of the White Council. And I finally found the exact place where this is metioned.

"Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the Lead of the Council,
and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the
office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor
be subject to any summons."

It's from the Silmarillion, 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'

Threaded | Flat

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

I found it!