Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two

[sigridhr]

 Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two (The Hobbit)
Chapter III: A Short Rest
Chapter IV: Over Hill and Under Hill

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a blind date with Gollum at the Mordor Fried Warg Emporium. I highly recommend the Mildewed Troll Innards (a deep, earthy dish, with plenty of flavour), and Boiled Nazgul Backside (light and airy, what it lacks in substance it makes up for in its sharp, stabbing taste that will stay with you long after you've left). 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.  
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 18th January 2013 to Friday 25th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

Comments

[j_quadrifrons]

From my book discussion notes:

Bilbo asking, when they first see the Misty Mountains in the distance, if that is the Mountain, is still one of my very favorite parts of the book. <3

I blame the tra-la-la-lally song for the fact that I never really did like Tolkien's Elves very much. (Well, except when I was fifteen. But all girls are obsessed with Elves when they're fifteen, surely?)

Trivia from The Annotated Hobbit (everyone get a copy, this book is amazing): Tolkien originally tried calling the Elves Gnomes, on account of the etymology (Greek gnome/gnosis), but the popular conception of Gnomes as little people with pointy hats killed that for him.

I was quite surprised at how articulate the goblins are until I remembered that the practically-speechless Orcs are an artifact of the movies; in the books, they talk quite a lot and are fairly well-spoken. (Tolkien explains in the appendices that he cleaned up their language quite a bit for publication.)

Also, wow this moves along. Chapter Four and to the Great Goblin already?

[sigridhr]

Yes! I love that line - it's such a nice, little reminder of how completely out of his depth Bilbo is, and how very, very far from home.

Tra-la-la-lally. I try to pretend that never happened. It just does not compute.

Oooh, I did not know that about the Gnome/Elf thing. That's interesting.

Speaking (tangentially) of talking orcs, I was really confused in the film version of the Hobbit, because once Azog has Thorin & co chased up a tree, he speaks directly to Thorin – and I'm pretty sure he's speaking the black speech... So why does Thorin apparently understand?

I think we had more and more speaking orcs as the LotR films went on – there were pretty much none in FotR, but by RotK there were quite a few – although I think a lot of their scenes are only in the extended edition. I think it's important that they do speak – they're already so dehumanized and black-and-white evil mostly, if they're voiceless as well it just wouldn't work for me. And I love the little glimpses you get into orcish politics (for lack of a better word) in LotR.

I suppose it's also worth stressing that the goblins are described as clever. So, they're not mindless monsters.

[j_quadrifrons]

After multiple viewings of the movie, I'm pretty sure that the only thing Thorin recognizes of Azog's insults to him in the tree is his own name and his father's; to be fair, whatever guess he made about the rest of that speech was probably pretty accurate.

(Alternatively, and entirely unsupported by any text but super cool, the Dwarves learned some of the Black Speech during the Dwarf and Goblin Wars, as a military tactic.)

I do love the Orcs in LotR - and I agree, the more they speak the more obvious it is that they're not mindless monsters. There are Orc factions and a certain kind of twisted loyalty.

(Further thoughts on tra-la-la-lally in a separate comment.)

[skadi_of_the_north]

Yeah, I always did find Tolkien's elves in this book to be a bit too tra-la-la for my tastes. And as someone who has not yet seen the film (woe, woe) I am sort of wary of how they are going to expand this small amount of text into a giant first movie, know what I mean?

[bewilderebeest]

As someone who has seen the movie and now just re-read the first four chapters, I'm a little baffled by just how much movie they've made out of the book so far. So, I'm with you.

[sigridhr]

Chapter 3: The 'high' elves of the West.

I'd forgotten how ridiculously tricksy the road is to Rivendell. I wonder how Elrond came across it in the first place?

"Hmmm! it smells like elves!" thought Bilbo.
The valley reeked of Herbal Essences and weed.

Tra-la-la-lally. Oh, boy. I maintain that this was actually Lindir, pissed off his face, who was singing a positively obscene ditty, that Bilbo later politely edited for posterity. It's the only way I can cope with this.

"Well, well!" said a voice. "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony. Isn't it delicious!"
"Most astonishing and wonderful!"
The elves have to be stoned. Seriously. Elrond was clearly feeding them all special lembas.

"Elves know a lot and are wondrous folk for news." AKA. they gossip like bunch of little old ladies and they'll tell you all about who's doing what with who if you'll just stand still long enough. The White Council was just 90% Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel reminiscing over that time Glorfindel got so pissed he was found naked by Turgon trying to sail to Valinor in a fountain.

I like the description of Elrond as embracing elements from all the races (save Hobbits) - fair as an elf-lord, wise as a wizard, venerable as a king of dwarves – and of course the nod to his human ancestry.



Chapter 4: Bad things always happen in the Misty Mountains. Always.

You know, the Mountains are weirdly sentient. Caradhras in LotR almost has a will of its own – it certainly ousts them from the mountain effectively, and here you have the stone giants that go frolicking in the thunderstorm. I haven't anything intelligent to say on that point - I just find it odd.

"We shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football."
Let's take a moment to appreciate the fact that the dwarves apparently play football. I WOULD WATCH THAT.

Dwarvish footy hooligan chants.
"Build a bonfire, build a bonfire,
put Thranduil on the top,
stick the elves all in the middle,
and burn the fucking lot!"

"T-H-O, R-I-N
Stuck in barrels and still we'll win,
with a nick nack paddywhack give your dog a bone,
Thranduil you can fuck off home."

"Then he dreamed that the floor of the cave was giving way, and he was slipping – beginning to fall down, goodness knows where to."
You know, I have to say, I was a bit annoyed with the fact that PJ took this for the films instead of just opening the back wall. I suppose it was probably more dramatic or whatever, but it was so damn implausible. To have them all fall down that chute, fight the goblins, fall down again, have a 200+ lb goblin fall on them, and all be totally okay just went beyond my ability to suspend disbelief. I know it's a film and yadda, yadda, but really. They should all be dead.

All the whipping just reminds me of this.

"in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them."
I wonder where this is?

Gandalf's babysitter headcount makes me so happy.

Cannot wait for Riddles in the Dark. :)

[j_quadrifrons]

Okay, I love the thought that this is actually a filthy Elf drinking song and Bilbo tidied it up to save poor wee Frodo's mind. <3

I have A LOT of feelings about Elrond and Elros, and that particular description is one of the reasons why. He just works SO HARD to keep all this shit in balance.

I am now picturing Bifur as a football hooligan. No one knows what he's chanting, and they're pretty sure they don't want to know.

"wicked dwarves" always makes me think of Nikabrik from "Prince Caspian." (gdi some day I will write that Narnia/ME crossover where Reepicheep ends up in Valinor and all the Elves throw a hissy fit)

[sigridhr]

He totally would! Either that or Sam edited it out of propriety.

I JOIN YOU IN THE ELROND AND ELROS FEELINGS. I have a lot of feelings about everyone, but I have especially a lot of feelings about Elrond. I had, for some reason, thought the 'kind as summer' description was in LotR and was pleasantly surprised to come across it here.

Hahahaha! As soon as that image popped into my head I just knew I had to share.

NARNIA/TOLKIEN CROSSOVER. YES. GOOD.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I can't get over the elves telling Thorin 'Don't dip your beard in the foam, father!' It's just so strange.

with a nick nack paddywhack give your dog a bone,
Thranduil you can fuck off home
OMG. You should win some kind of award for this, I swear. I'm sure Thorin would be incredibly proud of you.

Do you think there's any significance in Bilbo having a prophetic dream about what was about to happen in the goblin cave? Is he particularly tuned into that kind of thing? I can't really think if he demonstrates any similar skills to that later on.

[anki_koda]

Whatever the Elves were smoking I'm certain Saruman would be opposed to such...things. Perhaps, Radagast was visiting with his mushrooms?

[anki_koda]

Also, I found this part with the Elves singing and all that pretty strange because I read The Silmarillion before I read The Hobbit. So, when I got to this part I couldn't help but imagine Fëanor, Maedhros, Thingol, Fingolfin, Finrod and so on...singing like this...I just...I have a good laugh for about a minute before I decided that yes, they were probably drunk or something.

[j_quadrifrons]

Some more comments from Professor Olsen's "Exploring the Hobbit."

Olsen actually defends the "tra-la-la-lally" song, and this is how he does it. We know from the rest of the text that Elves are not bubbleheaded lunatics, even if that is the impression you would draw from their song alone. So how do you take the song? He argues that Tolkien is trying very hard (and possibly not quite succeeding) to get across the joy of Elves.

Pretty much the whole song is statements of the glaringly obvious, along with questions they already know the answers to. It's a kind of joke, teasing Bilbo and the Dwarves as they ride along. Every stanza ends in a laugh, after all.

What Tolkien is trying to get across, Olsen argues, is that Elves find everything in the world equally delightful: the Dwarves' seriousness, Bilbo on his pony, the smoking fire, the running river, the leaves on the trees. This in contrast to the epic tragic history which is only implied in The Hobbit but which we know to exist. Put that way, yes, I can find it a little bit moving. Until I read the actual song again and want to stab something.

(Olsen also contrasts the Elves' song with the Goblin song in the next chapter. They're both songs of utter delight, with stanzas that end in a laugh, except the Elves are taking delight in the world around them and the Goblins are taking delight in the capture, torment, and eventual death of the Dwarves. Another argument for Orcs as corrupted Elves, I think.)

Alternatively, someone back in the early days of the interwebs came up with this explanation, which I like quite a lot.

[sigridhr]

I'd agree in principle – but they really come across as unnaturally joyful. Of the medicated variety. It's hard to reconcile that with, say, the Fall of Gondolin – which was already written at the time, which is the thing that really boggles my mind.

Still, the (hilarious - thank you!) linked explanation makes a good point that Bilbo wanted to sit under the stars and listen to the singing, so presumably it improved somewhat.

[bewilderebeest]

I'm really enjoying re-reading the book so far. I've always preferred LOTR, but I will always have a soft spot for the Hobbit because my mother read it to me when I was in elementary school, and it's one of her favorite books. I'm going to steal the poor ancient copy she has and keep it for myself at some point, but I don't want it to get thrown out by accident.

For Chapter 3, I was struck by the utter civility of the dialogue between Thorin and Elrond. I mean, I read it quickly, but I just can't help but compare it to the movie, since it's so fresh in my mind still. The hostility of the dwarves toward the elves is so dominating in the movie, but this is the worst I see in the text:

"He [Bilbo] loved elves, though he seldom met them; but he was a little frightened of them too. Dwarves don't get on well with them. Even decent enough dwarves like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think), or get annoyed with them. For some elves tease them and laugh at them, and most of all at their beards."

Then, just after:

" 'Thank you!' said Thorin a bit gruffly; ..."

Is there background hatred I'm missing from other sources? Perhaps it's just the English penchant for understatement that's coming through.

As for Chapter 4, I love the Goblin names for the swords, Beater (Glamdring, "Foehammer") and Biter (Orcrist, "Goblin-cleaver"). Of course the goblins wouldn't call them by their elven names, but the names just fit in so well with those elven names that it makes me smile.

I'm just getting warmed up - maybe I'll have something more insightful to say next week.

[sigridhr]

I think the Elrond/Thorin secret love hate relationship is mostly an invention of Peter Jackson's. Certainly there was animosity between the dwarves and the elves regarding the fall of Doriath (Elu Thingol asked the dwarves to set the Silmaril in a necklace, they did, but then decided they'd rather keep it so they murdered him, which caused the protection around Doriath to fall and it to be destroyed, so, you know, awkward). But that was ramped up to over 9000 for the films. The Galadrhim also get a bit tetchy about letting Gimli in, but, on the flip side, the elves of Hollin definitely used to trade with Moria, and it's possible that Thorin himself may have traded with the elves of the Grey Havens, given where the Blue Mountains are located.

But Elrond was a pretty open-minded sort of dude, and I think Thorin's beef with Thranduil was primarily that he didn't want to share his treasure, and he got locked in a cell for his trouble.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I can't believe how quick and easy it was for them to reach Rivendell, compared to in Fellowship. And Elrond features a lot less in this than I remembered (I suppose the movie is clouding my memory of it).

When Tolkien wrote this, I assume he hadn't worked out the the history of the dwarf/elf relationship yet? Because it seemed like the only reason the dwarves didn't like the elves here is because the elves teased them and mocked their beards? And Thorin is basically civil and even polite to Elrond; he even says that he'll wield Orcrist with honour.

It was a hard path and a dangerous path, a crooked way and a lonely and a long.
This line just seems really strange to me. I don't really have anything to say about it, it's just odd.

Fili and Kili: they usually got these sorts of jobs (when everybody could see that it was absolutely no use sending Bilbo)
Poor Fili, Kili and Bilbo being the skivvies of the group!

It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them
Given when this was written and Tolkien's experiences in WWI, this really seems to be setting out to paint the goblins in the worst light possible. Yes, they can make clever things, but they don't seem to have a shred of positive purpose for it. I suppose it gave the reader a way to associate them with evil/inhumanity in the present? That's one of the things I like about Tolkien's writing in this - when you're reading, there's often just little references or phrases that pull the story back to the present and strike a chord with you, so that it all feels relevant, instead of just sheer fantasy.

[(Anonymous)]

The part about the machines jumped out at me too, and it really did pull me into the present, as I automatically thought about the debate over an assault rifle ban that seems to be all over the news lately.

I do find it interesting that in the same paragraph, Tolkien talks about their hatred for "the orderly and prosperous". Goblins are Chaotic Evil and envy taken to the extreme.

[sigridhr]

I think it's because Elrond is the very personification of civility in all situations. He's hard to get to, but I don't think he's in the habit of turning people away without very good reason. Plus, as I said above, despite the whole fall of Doriath thing, you have evidence of friendly trade between the dwarves of Moria and the elves of Hollin well after that. I think Thorin was bitter towards the elves of Lothlorien given it sits right by the site of the battle of Azanulbizar and they didn't lend a hand, but I think PJ turned this into a 'we hate all elves on site' blanket statement, which I don't think it was.

Definitely seconding your thoughts on the goblins/WWI.

[starliings.livejournal.com]

It's true, it's crazy that we're 4 chapters in and have basically covered a large chunk of the film. Although I did really enjoy all the extra stuff in the film so I guess it's all good!

I love this part:

"Boulders, too, at times, came galloping down the mountain-sides, let loose by the midday sun upon the snow, and passed among them (which was lucky), or over their heads (which was alarming)"

It just makes me laugh every time I read it. I can just picture Bilbo's (particularly Martin Freeman's Bilbo) eyes just gradually widening as these great hunks of rock go over his head. But let's not talk about how much I love Bilbo, I'll be here ALL DAY.

Also I love Gandalf counting dwarves like an over-worked nanny or something.

And I can see a running theme of Bilbo being knocked out a lot during major events (someone has a touch of the old Arthur Pendragon brand of being-unconscious-while-important-stuff-happens I think)

[sigridhr]

Haha! I love that line too. :P

Oooh, that's an interesting parallel. I love the fact that Bilbo is unconscious for the climax of the books.

[amidtheflowers]

Okay, noob entering.

Was I the only one who enjoyed the Elves' song? I rather liked the tra-la-lally! I felt like they were giving some kind of lightness of heart to the travelers, and while it's out of usual character for the elves, it's kind of fitting in the scene? I haven't read the LoTR trilogy in nearly ten years so I'm rusty in the details of how they /should/ behave, but it seemed...nice. And Bilbo definitely felt its effects as it lifted his weary spirits.

I also have to comment on the goblins' dialogues, because I expected a lot of crudeness in their language (probably because I'm so used to that in the movies), so when they started speaking full and proper sentences and sang songs (albeit not friendly songs), my eyebrows rose very high. Books are always better.

I have to say, the differences between the book and the movie are surprising. I guess for movie purposes they made certain changes, but I prefer the book's approach--and it makes a lot more sense.

I think this wasn't a very useful comment and I sort of just rehashed a lot of things others have already said, but that's what I feel so far~

[sigridhr]

AMIDTHEFLOWERS!

Hahaha, I enjoy Tra-la-lally more when I'm picturing them all drunk as lords. I think you're right though – there's a sort of parallel with the (less silly) description of Lothlórien as a place where time seems to stand still, and the weight of their quest becomes much lighter. I guess Rivendell is meant to be carefree in that same way – oddly removed from the world and the bookended trouble on either side of their visit (trolls and goblins, respectively).

I was much less impressed with the Hobbit as a film than the LotR films – I think it's mostly because I find the Hobbit is a nicely contained narrative, and that all the additions bogged down the script. But, then again, Richard Armitage, so....

I APPROVE OF YOUR COMMENT AND YOUR PRESENCE.

[oliphaunts]

no, I really enjoyed the song too! I mean, I don't know how much of it is genuine me-now enjoyment and how much of it is oh-I-really-laughed-at-this-when-I-was-eleven nostalgic enjoyment. But The Hobbit is, overall, a much more light-hearted book than the rest of Tolkien's oeuvre, since it was originally a bedtime story for his children. Tra-la-laly was probably a far more amusing thing for elves to be singing in the woods than the Lay of Luthien XD

I found it!

[anki_koda]

I know I mention this before about Galadriel wanting for Gandalf to be the leader of the White Council. And I finally found the exact place where this is metioned.

"Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the Lead of the Council,
and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the
office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor
be subject to any summons."

It's from the Silmarillion, 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'

Re: I found it!

[sigridhr]

Oooh! Good catch. I always forget that there's a tiny bit of TA stuff in the Silm.

Interesting notes on Gandalf – I wonder where he spends most of his time. Obviously he's happy to pretty much invite himself over wherever he feels like it, but hundreds of years is a long time to couch surf. :P