Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two

[sigridhr]

 Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Two (The Hobbit)
Chapter III: A Short Rest
Chapter IV: Over Hill and Under Hill

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a blind date with Gollum at the Mordor Fried Warg Emporium. I highly recommend the Mildewed Troll Innards (a deep, earthy dish, with plenty of flavour), and Boiled Nazgul Backside (light and airy, what it lacks in substance it makes up for in its sharp, stabbing taste that will stay with you long after you've left). 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.  
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 18th January 2013 to Friday 25th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

Comments

[sigridhr]

I sometimes forget that Tolkien was a soldier. I read a great article (though I can't find it again! Dammit) ages ago about the battle tactics in LotR, and how they were actually quite sound.

Yeah, he makes a point of how they're clever, but, as Gallifaerie said, they're clever in ways that only do harm.

[anki_koda]

I always thought it was a little bit unfair for them to die. I mean, all the suffering, all the pain to go back to their homes...and then, they just died. It took me sometime to understand why.

Who am I kidding, I still don't get it *sobbing in a corner*

[sigridhr]

Haha! I love that line too. :P

Oooh, that's an interesting parallel. I love the fact that Bilbo is unconscious for the climax of the books.

[anki_koda]

Oh, I forgot about that one! Such an hypocrite :)

[sigridhr]

He totally is. He rags on both Radagast and Gandalf (in the films at least) for it, but he's been importing it the whole time.

[amidtheflowers]

Okay, noob entering.

Was I the only one who enjoyed the Elves' song? I rather liked the tra-la-lally! I felt like they were giving some kind of lightness of heart to the travelers, and while it's out of usual character for the elves, it's kind of fitting in the scene? I haven't read the LoTR trilogy in nearly ten years so I'm rusty in the details of how they /should/ behave, but it seemed...nice. And Bilbo definitely felt its effects as it lifted his weary spirits.

I also have to comment on the goblins' dialogues, because I expected a lot of crudeness in their language (probably because I'm so used to that in the movies), so when they started speaking full and proper sentences and sang songs (albeit not friendly songs), my eyebrows rose very high. Books are always better.

I have to say, the differences between the book and the movie are surprising. I guess for movie purposes they made certain changes, but I prefer the book's approach--and it makes a lot more sense.

I think this wasn't a very useful comment and I sort of just rehashed a lot of things others have already said, but that's what I feel so far~

[oliphaunts]

not to mention, iirc, those were the dwarves of Nogrod, which is a different house from that of Durin. I imagine the animosity between any remaining elves of Doriath and the dwarves of Nogrod would not have spilled over very much to the House of Durin, since they were over in the Misty Mountains at that point. like, they'd certainly be aware of it, but not so much that immediate hatred portrayed in the movies. not all dwarves are the same dwarves, PJ! and I do agree with you about Thorin trading with the elves of the Grey Havens, with even possible secondary trade links with Rivendell, since in the Appendices Tolkien says Thorin traded widely.

I'm warm and cozy in my bed and can't be arsed to, uh, get my copy of The Hobbit, but am I right in saying that in the book the elves didn't do a movie!Thranduil but had instead arrived too late?

(p.s. I swear I'm not a rando; just saw this discussion linked over on tumblr and rejoiced)

[sigridhr]

YES. THIS.

There are different houses of dwarves, just as there are different types of elves, all with their own complex histories. I do get why that might be a bit much for your average blockbuster movie viewer, though, but it is a tad disappointing when all that complex history gets über simplified for the sake of the film.

I can't find the specific reference at the moment, but my brain is a bit fried. I think they may have sort of imported the whole Thranduil and his Apathetic Moose of Doom™ scene from a comment in the UT on how after the battle of Azanulbizar, even though they were camped on the edge of the Golden Wood and had wounded there was no help from the Galadhrim.

Welcome! :D *makes zombie hands* JOOOOOIIIIIIN USSSSS.

[sigridhr]

AMIDTHEFLOWERS!

Hahaha, I enjoy Tra-la-lally more when I'm picturing them all drunk as lords. I think you're right though – there's a sort of parallel with the (less silly) description of Lothlórien as a place where time seems to stand still, and the weight of their quest becomes much lighter. I guess Rivendell is meant to be carefree in that same way – oddly removed from the world and the bookended trouble on either side of their visit (trolls and goblins, respectively).

I was much less impressed with the Hobbit as a film than the LotR films – I think it's mostly because I find the Hobbit is a nicely contained narrative, and that all the additions bogged down the script. But, then again, Richard Armitage, so....

I APPROVE OF YOUR COMMENT AND YOUR PRESENCE.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that dream Frodo had! That is interesting actually!

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's true it still has relevance literally right now (although I suppose, violence always does and sadly always will).

They don't even seem to want an orderly kind of evil, like a regime or anything? A lot of evil forces have distinct plans for who they're going to kill and what they're going to do when they get power, but the goblins literally just seem to abhor anything that's not like them.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Ah, I can see that the elf/dwarf relationship is a lot more complex than I previously thought. But that's better, because I always find situations where there are more shades of grey more interesting and realistic than just black and white.

[oliphaunts]

no, I really enjoyed the song too! I mean, I don't know how much of it is genuine me-now enjoyment and how much of it is oh-I-really-laughed-at-this-when-I-was-eleven nostalgic enjoyment. But The Hobbit is, overall, a much more light-hearted book than the rest of Tolkien's oeuvre, since it was originally a bedtime story for his children. Tra-la-laly was probably a far more amusing thing for elves to be singing in the woods than the Lay of Luthien XD

[oliphaunts]

exactly! especially with the elves in Middle-Earth. I super disagree with Thranduil's rainment in the movies, actually. It just seems so ... un-Silvan, and extremely impractical for the purposes of guerilla warfare in a wood called MIRKWOOD. though they did kind of mess up Tolkien's timelines in the movies for the purpose of shoehorning a bigger role for Radagast in, (I did actually enjoy Radagast and the RABBITS OF RHOSGOBEL a lot), so it's referred to as Eryn Lasgalen when that is only a name taken on post-Galadriel throwing down Dol Guldur. If I remember correctly.

The thing is, though, that if the costume department managed to come up with such diverse and wonderful costumes for the dwarves, it's really more a matter of PJ's (and Pippa Boyens, and Fran Walsh's) directorial decision to over-simplify the history of ME. Which is also why I'll never believe it when people say that they know and love Tolkien's oeuvre. I mean, in that Empire interview only Richard Armitage (bless him) managed to come up with trivia, and Armitage came out with the Nauglamir. He referred to that with its earlier name -- Nauglafring, which just DELIGHTS ME UTTERLY BECAUSE HE'S MUCH A GEEK ABOUT TOLKIEN AS WE ARE. o/////

Er, sorry for going off on a tangent. On the same note, though, what did you think of the decision to keep Azog alive in the movie? I sort of understand it in a Hollywood-logic kind of way, that they wanted to imbue Thorin with even more 'epic' a personal narrative, by giving him another, more immediate protagonist in the movie. But I also hate it, because it reduces the complexity of the dwarves' stories to All About Thorin And His Dwarvely Angst.

My copy of UT is not even on the same continent as me right now, so I'll take your word for it! That does make Celeborn seem like a bit of a petty dick, lol. I know their kindred sacked your first home way back in the First Age, but seriously man.

[sigridhr]

Yeah, I have to say I'm a bit annoyed with them changing the timeline so that Mirkwood was only recently infested with a crotchety old evil Maia. There is a big difference between Thranduil dicking around and getting drunk in the Greenwood for a couple hundred years, and Thanduil fighting spiders on his doorstep for that same amount of time.

I do understand the decision to simplify, though. The chief complaint I've heard against Tolkien is that there's just too much density (WHICH IS RIDICULOUS. HE MADE DRAWINGS OF THE CARPET PATTERNS IN NUMENOR. NO AMOUNT OF DETAIL IS TOO MUCH), and you can tell the essence of the story without all of the interesting history – it's just not as rich. I do firmly believe that Weta workshop are geeks of the best and highest order, though, with the amount of beautiful work they put in – and I'd agree that I would've liked to see more geeky trivia from PJ & co.

Everytime Richard Armitage gets geeky I pretty much die. I can think of no bigger turn on, tbh, than a man knowing his Silmarillion. :P

My biggest complaint with the film was Azog, actually. I just felt like it was a bit unnecessary – we already have the storyline of the actual Hobbit, and then the White Council storyline (which presumably will include Gandalf ousting Sauron from Dol Goldur - and possibly finding Thráin, because the timelines have been wonkified like whoa). I thought that between the two there was plenty to go on, and the Azog storyline just bogged everything down. The thing about Thorin's angst-o-rama is that there was already loads to go on. He already was on a personal mission to reclaim Erebor if you wanted to talk about motivation (and I loved the expanded emphasis on his motives in the film versus the more simplified 'we want our gold back' motive Bilbo records), and, if they do include the finding of Thráin, there's ample opportunity to throw in a second bundle of angst. PLUS you have him coming into contact with Thranduil who he now also has a Personal Vendetta™ with, so it's all just a bit too much. I get that they wanted a named protagonist for the climax of the film, I suppose, but I wonder if it wouldn't have worked better to split it in two as they'd originally planned, and cut the Azog line altogether. After all, there was Bolg in the book, who could have fulfilled some of the same role, only with more canon.

That said, Bilbo throwing himself at the orc to save Thorin, and then the hug did funny things to my heart, so... :P

I think the Galadhrim are just really xenophobic and insular (as far as elves go). They have a pretty bad rep too – the Rohirrim are all wary of the woods too, aren't they? 'Course the Elven kingdoms of the first age were pretty closed off too – Gondolin being the obvious example of this being taken to extremes. I suspect if a similar situation were to have occurred near Gondolin, Turgon might not have come out to lend aid either.

[sigridhr]

This is why I will always love the books more. :P

I found it!

[anki_koda]

I know I mention this before about Galadriel wanting for Gandalf to be the leader of the White Council. And I finally found the exact place where this is metioned.

"Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the Lead of the Council,
and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the
office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor
be subject to any summons."

It's from the Silmarillion, 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'

Re: I found it!

[sigridhr]

Oooh! Good catch. I always forget that there's a tiny bit of TA stuff in the Silm.

Interesting notes on Gandalf – I wonder where he spends most of his time. Obviously he's happy to pretty much invite himself over wherever he feels like it, but hundreds of years is a long time to couch surf. :P

Re: I found it!

[anki_koda]

My bet is Hobbiton and with the Dunedain. I mean, he seems to be on a pretty stable relationship with them and be wherever there is trouble.

Also, I have a question, on the movie Galadriel and Elrond mentioned the fight against the Witch King of Angmar right? Which book makes a reference about the power of the King of the Nazgul and the fight in which he was buried with the sword? Or is it something they add?

Re: I found it!

[sigridhr]

I didn't realise this until I looked it up, but the wars with Angmar (that caused the destruction of Amon Sûl) is what precipitated the Stoors to migrate in the first place. So, that's interesting.

But, yes, from the Appendices of LotR: After several battles between Angmar and various combinations of Elves (from Lothlórien, Imladris and Mithlond) and the Kings of Arnor, and his armies were finally decimated by a host lead by Círdan and cavalry from Gondor. Then, Glorfindel makes the prophecy that no man can kill the Witch King of Angmar (which Eowyn subverts by virtue of her vagina).

“Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.”

He's basically driven back, but the Witch-King himself is not dead (he fled to Mordor) nor buried, and Glorfindel makes it pretty clear that they're all aware of this. So, yes, it was made up for the film. :)

Re: I found it!

[anki_koda]

So, it's Glorfindel the one who seals the fate of the Witch King.

And, that explains a lot of things. I just find it funny how Thranduil is so much like Thingol. I mean, he didn't help and like to keep out of the trouble much like Thingol did until war was upon his door then he decided to go and help Celeborn during the Ring war. Well, more than help he decided to go out there and fight the orcs and all but yes...

Re: I found it!

[sigridhr]

Well, yes and no. You could (and I would) argue that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. Glorfindel set the dominoes up, the Witch-King himself and Eowyn pushed them over.

Thranduil's father Oropher was from Doriath, wasn't he? Isn't there something somewhere about how Thranduil's halls in Mirkwood were meant to echo Menegroth?

[j_quadrifrons]

That is an utterly delightful mental image which I will carry with me for the rest of my days. (Fëanor would be so angry.)

[j_quadrifrons]

Well, they were supposed to be unnaturally joyful. Not medicated, but enthralled with the world in a way humans (and hobbits, apparently) can't understand.

I agree, it doesn't come off well, but the more I consider it the better I see the point.

(As far as Gondolin already having been written - I do think Tolkien was trying very hard to keep his epic mythology out of this children's story as much as possible, and he may have overcompensated as an attempt to keep all the kinslaying and betrayal and violence as far from this story as possible.)

[j_quadrifrons]

...I want a Numenorian carpet.