Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

[sigridhr]

 *smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited. 
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :) 

Comments

[j_quadrifrons]

I've always thought of goblins and orcs being about as similar as, say, Gondorians and Rohirrim - both the same species, with different phenotypes. From all the various notes and letters and bits I've read, that seems to be what Tolkien was trying to do with them. I think PJ does something different - he really does treat orcs from different regions as entirely different species, more like the difference between Elves and Men and hobbits.

Literarily speaking, the goblins in The Hobbit seem to be directly descended from the goblins from the North Pole that he wrote about for his children - "Letters from Father Christmas" is my absolute favorite discovery of the past couple of years.

[meinterrupted]

I've always thought of goblins and orcs being about as similar as, say, Gondorians and Rohirrim - both the same species, with different phenotypes.

That's what I gathered from The Hobbit and LotR as well. Basically, goblins are orcs that live underground, and have evolved into a different ethnicity rather than a completely separate race. Like how a homo sapiens sapiens from Norway has blonde hair, blue eyes, and very fair skin, while an Aboriginal person from Australia--who is the exactly same species--looks so different. ANd since the goblins have chosen to live underground, they have hugely different societies and structures, etc.

Honestly, something that's really started to be interesting to me is the sort of society that breeds the types of sapient beings that seem to so relish the art of war and killing. The obviously don't value life, which makes me think their birth rate must be extraordinarily high, yet we never see any obvious women. So, are the women hiding away in the tunnels with litters of baby goblins and orcs? Is it a dog-eat-dog world, where only the strongest out of a litter of five or seven survive?

Is this in some of the supplementary material?

[j_quadrifrons]

It seems that Tolkien was never really satisfied with Orcs. He could never decide if they were corrupted Elves or Men, he didn't know if they had free will or not, he didn't really know where they came from, and toward the end of his life, he was deeply uncomfortable with the idea that they were irredeemably evil, and was trying to adjust his universe to allow them a little more latitude.

Note that we also see the Orcs almost exclusively at war - with the possible exception of the goblins in the Misty Mountains. We see no Orc women for the exact same reason we see no Dwarf women.

(If one is so inclined, there is always the Russian fanfic-novel "The Last Ringbearer," which tells the story of LotR from the Orcish point of view.)

[meinterrupted]

Well, in a children's novel, the distinction between "good" and "bad" should be relatively clear, which is why I can forgive the goblins in The Hobbit for being irredeemably evil. Especially since the Dwarves basically invaded the goblin's home.

But in LotR they are very problematic. I'm hoping that this reading club will force me to take a deeper look this time, rather than just "askdjflaksjhdflj HOBBITS! asdjf;aksdj SAM SAM EOWYN!!" which is basically how I've read it all the other times.

[sigridhr]

When Barad-dûr collapses you get the following description:

“all the host of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their heats, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid.” [6.IV.] (Emphasis mine)

I sort of wonder if the orcs represent the 'I was just following orders, sir', kind of evil? You have a contrast:

“the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope. But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle.”

between 'beasts enslaved', which kill themselves or despair (in the knowledge of what they've done, or the absence of leadership?), versus the humans who literally signed up for this in full knowledge, who are independently fighting for the cause.

The orcs aren't explicitly mentioned here, but I think there is a distinction between the thrall of the orcs (who were made by Morgoth, I think, and could be seen as part of his 'plan' in a similar way to how Elves/Men/Good Folk are part of Eru's 'plan'), and men like the Haradrim or the Mouth of Sauron. There is sort of a question here as to what extent the orcs had free will at all.

[hibari-sensei.livejournal.com]

First off, I just want to say that I got all giddy when jenavira wrote "phenotype" (I'm a biologist doing a lot of genetics work).

I once read an article that made the argument for orcs reproducing via parthenogenesis. Tolkien mentions the existence of females for all other species so maybe there's only one sex of orc/goblin. Here's the link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/occams-corner/2012/dec/20/hobbits-hypotheses

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

That article was really interesting - thanks for sharing it! I literally only covered parthenogenesis in a lecture the day before you posted that, so that was a nice coincidence!

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the delayed response (university does tend to get in the way of these things!).

both the same species, with different phenotypes

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and it makes sense to me. I definitely think the orcs and goblins seem more different in the film than in the book.

Ah, I've heard so many good things about Letters from Father Christmas; I really must check it out sometime!

[j_quadrifrons]

No worries! It happens. (Do find Letters from Father Christmas - it's like a little mini-course in how Tolkien's imagination gets away from him and just turns into this huge sprawling THING, I love it to death.)