Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One
Jan. 10th, 2013 09:05 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sigridhr *smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!
Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton
Rules
I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:
(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :)
Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton
Rules
I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:
- Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces.
- There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources.
- There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited.
- If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com.
(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :)
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Date: 2013-01-11 06:42 am (UTC)It's funny, because the Hobbit mentions a bunch of things – like faries - that are really interesting but don't seem to pop up anywhere else. Where do the fairies live? I mean, they must be at least Hobbit-ish size in order for one to be taken as a wife. Are they chilling with the Entwives?
I love how Bilbo, at 50, is the youngest (I think). They're all older than dirt. Thorin's 195. And Gandalf is so old he remembers riding Woolly Mammoths. He and Galadriel swap stories about the time they chased down a Saber-Toothed Tiger.
I love this quote so much! There's something so succinctly hilarious about it – especially with the use of words like bewildered and bewuthered.
I have to say, I like Thorin's entrance in the film better than him getting squashed under Bombur on the mat. (Instead he gets squashed under Bombur in a sack by the trolls).
Speaking of things that were good in the film – that song. Oh, dear, god. That was perfect. Perfect.
This is interesting, especially given how everything plays out in the end. This is Tolkien's sort of temptation of the craftsman – Fëanor falls into this trap too, with his love of the Silmarils. It's not greed flat out, though – it's a love for things they've wrought. It's similar to Galadriel's works in Lothlórien with Nenya – makes you wonder what the dwarf rings could've been if Sauron hadn't got his hands on them.
Except, I remember reading once that Tolkien based the dwarves on the Jews (I think it was in the letters, but I don't have my copy here so I can't confirm – does anyone else know for sure?) – which was part of why they'd lost their homeland – so this sort of avarice is a bit awkward given Jewish stereotypes.
Pompous-prolix!Thorin makes me happy.
Why don't Fili and Kili know their quest? They're his nephews. Headcanon: he didn't tell them anything so that Dís wouldn't find out why he was taking them with him. "Oh, don't mind us. We're just going for a walk. To Erebor. See you in a bit!"
Gandalf is like a used car salesman trying to pawn off Bilbo as a successful burglar.
I wish they'd kept this bit in the film. Poor Bilbo has a load of Dwarves turn up uninvited (by him), who proceed to eat him out of house and home, sing him a song by way of explanation and then insult him – I love that he refuses to take it. BILBO IS NOT PUTTING UP WITH YOUR SHIT, THORIN.
And he's so unbelievably brave here. They've been going on about Dragons, and he says 'you've got the wrong man, but I'll step up to the plate to help you anyway, so ha.' I FUCKING LOVE BILBO.
Also, great were-worms??? What the hell are these? Are they from Harad? WHY DID THEY NOT RIDE WERE-WORMS INTO BATTLE ON THE PELENNOR? (I am having epic Dune/Tolkien crossovers in my head right now).
I love how they need Bilbo because 13 is an unlucky number. Hahaha. Triskaidekaphobes, the lot of them.
The bit about apprenticing men to the dwarves is interesting - especially since the dwarves are cast as pretty insular (admittedly, it's from the film, and I can't remember if it's in the books as well, but the line from Elrond about how the Dwarves care nothing for the struggles of others comes to mind). Also notable that they don't bother to grow any food for themselves, apparently – and get by just on trading. The Hollin gate at Moria also suggests that dwarves used to be great neighbours, actually. And, for a people who refuse to teach their language to outsiders, are very friendly.
And I love how Thorin talks about making toys, of all things. I find that really sweet. There aren't many dwarf babies, are there? Since there aren't many dwarf women... So, they must sell most of their toys to the humans.
Chapter II;
Gandalf says "Great Elephants!" Great. Elephants.
Possibly stupid question, but:
- we're in Arnor, yes? So, are they talking about the line of Elendil? If so, almost no one was aware that the heir to the throne was pottering about the countryside without any soap and refusing to bathe, but apparently the dwarves were?
(On the trolls:) "not to mention their language, which was not drawing-room fashion at all." Oh, Tolkien, you classy snob.
"[Thorin] came expecting mischief, and didn’t need to see his friends’ legs sticking out of sacks to tell him that things were not all well." That is the most hilarious mental image.
As much as I enjoyed the version of this scene in the film, I love Gandalf's making them argue. It's hilarious.
So, Fili and Kili carry out the pots of coins from the troll hoard – what the hell do they do with them? If they keep them, they must lose them in the Misty Mountains. Or maybe they use them to pay for Elrond's Luxury B&B.
...
As for more general thoughts – the purpose of the mission is interesting, I think. It's personal, and clearly vengeance is a hot button for Thorin since the mention of Thráin's death has him immediately sticking Sauron on a shit list and preparing to march right up to Dol Goldur, Necromancer or no Necromancer, and give him a what-for.
From the perspective of Tolkien as an Anglo-Saxon scholar it's interesting, of course, given vengeance was a driving force for a lot of their heroic deeds. Beowulf is probably the biggest example of this – Beowulf kills Grendel as vengeance for his attacks on Hrothgar's halls, Grendel's mother retaliates, Beowulf retaliates back, and so on. I think there's parallels between Beowulf's death at the hands of the dragon and Thorin's, too, to be found.
It's interesting – you have Thorin acting out of vengeance, Aragorn who acts, arguably, out of duty (there's Elrond's condition that he become King, which is probably a deliberate echo of Elu-Thingol's conditions on Beren), and people like Éowyn, who become heroes out of a desire for glory. Aragorn is clearly an ideal, which makes Eowyn's type and Thorin's type more interesting. Eowyn is a funny one, because – I love her to pieces, but – she was charged with the defence of Meduseld, and she abandoned it. I think it's Aragorn who says something along the lines of 'a time will come for valour without renown', but that's really, really not Eowyn's style. She's, I think, a very traditional Anglo-Saxon hero as well, in regards to her desire for remembrance and glory in battle, but she achieves it at the cost of her responsibilities – it all works out ok in the end for her, but it could've gone very differently.
Thorin's a bit similar, in the sense that he, and the remnants of the people of Erebor, had just built up a reasonably good living for themselves, and he heads off to go tickle the dragon. And he'd've gone to Dol Goldur too, probably, if Gandalf hadn't told him not to. It's vengeance, yes, but it's done at the cost of people he's responsible to – and costs him his direct bloodline.
Then you have the Hobbits, who'd rather not be heroes at all, but there's something that needs doing so we'd best just get on with it as best we can. And they're the true heroes of Tolkien's works – which I find really, really charming.
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Date: 2013-01-11 07:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-11 05:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-11 05:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-11 09:02 pm (UTC)You may not know what a Hobbit is but you certanly know what a hole in the ground is. It makes you curious to know wwhat kind of creature lives there that it isn't an animal, of course.
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Date: 2013-01-12 01:32 am (UTC)Haha, you read my mind! I was considering quoting that sentence – you're right: it's such a lovely starting point. It's just the right mix of charming, curious and a humble, quiet beginning to a big adventure.
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Date: 2013-01-12 01:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-12 03:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-12 04:41 am (UTC)He has this to say on the matter:
He's referring here to giving Thorin the key to the Lonely Mountain.
So, I guess, he just took a fancy to him. He gives justification for choosing a Hobbit (a burglar over a warrior because stealth is their only hope of success, and that a Hobbit would be an unknown to Smaug, and therefore might be in their favour. Gandalf also seems to pay a lot of attention to Hobbit lineage and history – he knows his Tooks and Bagginses from his block-headed Bracegirdles from Hardbottle, so to speak, so I think he knew that Bilbo's Tookishness would do him well. Bilbo himself was unusual in his adventurousness and his associations – he'd spoken to Dwarves before (remember, he knew the correct polite response to 'at your service'), and would therefore be much better suited and more receptive to travelling with a bunch of grumpy old Dwarves than your average Hobbit.
But you're right – Bilbo doesn't seem very remarkable – which just makes him all the more remarkable! One of my favourite bits from the Council of Elrond sequence, which I was sad they cut out of the films, was when Bilbo stands up and says he'll take the ring to Mordor because "he started this business, so he might as well finish it". It's the same, pig-headed bravery you get in the Hobbit – he, of course, didn't start it any more than he signed up to be a burglar, but, by golly, he's going to do it!
I love Bilbo so, so much.
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Date: 2013-01-12 04:50 am (UTC)As you said, Bilbo is actually quite remarkable. I also love that part of the Council of Elrond because Boromir was about to laugh at this Halfling for even suggesting that until he realized half the room is looking at Bilbo with admiration, respect and foundness. I always thought Elrond, Gandalf, even Aragorn (and I hope Glorfindel and Erestor) were trying to protect Bilbo for further damage from the Ring. Which, actually, is one of the reasons they didn't allow him to go on que quest.
But, there is something about Bilbo that always makes you think twice about him which I believe was the first thing that attracted Thorin to him. In a no romantic way, of course. ;)
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Date: 2013-01-12 04:55 am (UTC)Gandalf is such a sneaky wizard! He pretty much just goes around stirring shit up and smoking weed. And, you know, helping Bilbo use the One Ring of Sauron to do magic tricks at his birthday party. Which is hilariously badass.
YES! I love that bit so much! It's so telling that Bilbo has the respect of all these great elf lords (and Aragorn). And then they let him sail west with them.
Hahaha. You should read the The Quest of Erebor, because I think you'd enjoy it a lot. Thorin is a complete asshole about Bilbo at first – waaay more than in the books.
What do you mean non-romantic? XD
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Date: 2013-01-12 05:10 am (UTC)Oh, I bet he was a complete asshole, even if the Hobbit doesn't mention that much you can feel it. If one read the Silmarillion one can understand a little about Dwarves, of course I bet the complementary readings give you even more insight on how they behave and how deep can be their resentment towards Smaug and Elves.
But, I bet Bilbo didn't let Thorin get his way that easily, did he?
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Date: 2013-01-12 05:16 am (UTC)Haha, yeah. Thorin does rather exude pompous asshat at times. I can't actually remember reading much about Dwarves in The History of Middle Earth. I'd have to re-read – maybe someone will come along who's better read than I am to fill in the gaps, though.
But definitely a lot of the resentment stems from Doriath and the - err - incident with the Nauglamir, I think.
Bilbo was totally running the show. After they crossed the Misty Mountains it was the do-as-Bilbo-says show, with Thorin as his official sock puppet.
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Date: 2013-01-12 05:22 am (UTC)Thorin...mmm, where to start. He is rather complicated, I think. Once you start catching up with Bilbo you can almost guess what his Baggins or Took-ish part would do/say. But Thorin is a little harder to read. He is arrogant, proud and a complete asshole but, then again, he has his reasons and the people closest to him could tell he isn't that bad. Fili and Kili come to my mind when I think of a softer Thorin and then, of course, Bilbo who he grows to love...I mean, respect...respect...:)
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Date: 2013-01-12 05:34 am (UTC)Thorin is complicated. I like that about him. I think you can read him as both hero and anti-hero – his actions make sense, but are also selfish. He's proud and arrogant, but you could also read Bilbo's insistence that he can, in fact, be of use against a dragon, please don't be insulting me in my house, I thank you, as arrogance and pride as well. As soon as they say he's not any good, he stands up and insists he'll go along with it anyway to prove them wrong. Almost any failing can be a virtue in another situation.
It's a bit like the Eowyn/Thorin parallel I drew above – Eowyn and Bilbo were successful, Thorin not so much. But I think all their hearts were in the right place. Eowyn is covetous of glory in the same way Thorin is covetous of Erebor's gold. And Bilbo, I suppose, of his pride.
But he certainly does come to love Bilbo (Platonically! XD). That's why he flips his shit over the Arkenstone, I think, because his
boyfriendnew best-friend stole it from him (tricksy Baggins that he is).no subject
Date: 2013-01-12 12:51 pm (UTC)And, to continue our discusion, Thorin was so in denial it was so funny...then, the end made it all hurt.
The first time I read the Hobbit I didn't understand why Biblo had betrayed his friends in such a way. I was as angry as Thorin and Co. because I had may faith put on Bilbo that he would help them, even if that means fight Elves and Men. And then, he goes and does that...
The second time I realized just how much I started understanding the Dwarves and how sympathetic I feel for them the first time around. Of course, the second time I got why Bilbo was doing it. He was sacrifying that friendship he had forged during the journey for their well-being.
Recently, I heard the parallel between the Arkenstone and the silmaril. But, there is something that bothers me about this. The Arkestone was supposed to be a jewel they found on the mountain while the silmaril was Fëanor's most valuable construction. So, they are comparing the love that creates on their owners and how this 'love' can turn into greedy and stubborness?
I so apologize for the spelling and grammar! i'm still half sleep and I keep getting the spelling in Spanish rather than in English :)
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Date: 2013-01-12 06:57 pm (UTC)He's willing to repeatedly put his own well-being at risk for the sake of others.
I think a better comparison can be made with others who coveted the Silmaril, rather than Fëanor – like Elu Thingol, and the Dwarves who made the Nauglamír. Then we have greed and stubborness over something that was not their own work.
I'm curious as to how much of Thingol's request of Beren that he get a Silmaril from Morgoth was meant to be just a task so utterly impossible he'd be doomed to failure, and how much was Thingol actually wanting a Silmaril.
Hahaha, you manage better than I do when I'm wide awake and in my native language. :P
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Date: 2013-01-12 08:16 pm (UTC)Speaking of Elves and Dwarves, I just have to ask because is something that recently blossom in the Tolkien fandom.
What do you think about the pairings? Canon/non-canon
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Date: 2013-01-12 08:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-12 08:27 pm (UTC)I have so much love for the Legolas/Gimli Friendship. Let's look at Gimli for a second. His father was Glóin who was taken prisoner by Legolas' father, and there was MUCH BAD BLOOD over that. Then, Thranduil shows up and is all 'gimme your treasure, yo, also here's the dude who killed the dragon, he's my credentials, I'm legit, pay up' and Thorin is all FUCK THAT NOISE. Then he dies.
So, Gimli grows up with all of Glóin's war stories ('SIT DOWN, SON, AND LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE TIME ME AND 12 FRIENDS GOT A WIZARD TO HELP US KIDNAP A HOBBIT AND NEARLY FEED HIM TO A DRAGON'), and is very clearly all RAAAH ELVES in the same way that Glóin and Co were.
And then he meets Galadriel, and he asks her for a single strand of her hair. Fëanor, aka. 'The Greatest of the Noldor' made that exact same request of her, and she refused. But here's this dwarf, who kicked up a hell of a shit over being blindfolded when brought into Lothlórien, who asks her for it.
And she gives him THREE.
And then Gimli becomes Legolas' best friend 5ever. Seriously. They agree to go visit Fangorn (which Gimli hates) and the Glittering Caves (which Legolas hates) after the War of the Ring, because they're broadening each other's horizons. And after Aragorn dies, Legolas builds a boat and takes Gimli to the undying lands with him.
HE TAKES GIMLI TO THE UNDYING LANDS. Gimli is the only dwarf ever to set foot there.
So, AGEJAOGEHAOGEHAWOGEAW. It's such a perfect coming full circle, because this is a history seeped in blood and violence. You have Fëanor's kinslaying, the slaying of Elu-Thingol and the fucking fall of Doriath, the imprisonment of Thorin, the desolation of Smaug all hovering in the background, and Legolas and Gimli just go, fuck it, we're off to Valinor to live out our days in heterosexual bliss.
Legolas and Gimli's friendship is probably one of the most underrated things in fandom - at least as far as I've seen. And, as much as I did like the LotR films overall, I was really, really annoyed that Gimli was pretty much comic relief. HE CHARMED GALADRIEL INTO GIVING HIM SOMETHING SHE REFUSED FEANOR. He is SUAVE as a very SUAVE thing. And noble, and wonderful, and YOU SHOULD BE PROUD, GLOIN, BECAUSE YOU DID A REALLY GOOD JOB. CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR SON.
So, yeah.
As for Thorin/Thranduil. I think Thranduil is an asshole. (I mean, don't get me wrong, a pretty asshole if we're going by the films). And Thorin's asshole inclinations probably brought out the worst in Thranduil. He's probably grumpy that everyone else got a nice magicky ring, and all he got was spiders, Sauron in the woods and an neighbourly dragon. So, there is that.
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Date: 2013-01-12 08:29 pm (UTC)I'd say Sam is pretty much as close to without guile as you can get, but he was severely tempted, just as Frodo was. I don't think anyone at all could have destroyed the Ring – that's why Gollum had to do it by accident.
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Date: 2013-01-12 08:37 pm (UTC)Weere did you get that part about Galadriel and Fëanor? Because I re-read the Silmarillion and couldn't find it (and if it was there I'm blind ) Now the part of the undying lands was just magnificent, I never thought he actually would take Gloin and I just know everyone including Galadriel would recieved Gloin with the highest honors.
Hahahaha, is is bad Tolkine never gives us more about Thranduil. I love how much of an asshole he is, and I just can't wait for the magnificent Lee Pace to portray him. That is going to be interesting.
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Date: 2013-01-12 08:39 pm (UTC)I believe, as you do, no one would be able to destroy. It was luck that Gollum arrived at the perfect moment.
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Date: 2013-01-12 08:45 pm (UTC)Oh, I don't mind at all. Quote away. :P HAHAHA. Yes. There we go, Hobbit in 30 seconds!
I think it's in the Unfinished Tales? Lemme check.
FOUND IT:
See? They were unfriends. Hair is serious business.
Gimli totally charmed the panties off Galadriel. Because he's a BAMF.
Yeah, we know almost nothing about Legolas – which is odd, given we know quite a bit about pretty much everyone else in the company. But Tolkien did say in one of his letters that Legolas was the least important of all the nine.
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Date: 2013-01-12 08:50 pm (UTC)