Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

[sigridhr]

 *smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited. 
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :) 

Comments

[anki_koda]

I am refering, of course, at the Hate!Love relationship between Thorin/Thranduil and the future Gimli/Legolas.

[sigridhr]

OK. MY GIMLI FEELS, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM.

I have so much love for the Legolas/Gimli Friendship. Let's look at Gimli for a second. His father was Glóin who was taken prisoner by Legolas' father, and there was MUCH BAD BLOOD over that. Then, Thranduil shows up and is all 'gimme your treasure, yo, also here's the dude who killed the dragon, he's my credentials, I'm legit, pay up' and Thorin is all FUCK THAT NOISE. Then he dies.

So, Gimli grows up with all of Glóin's war stories ('SIT DOWN, SON, AND LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE TIME ME AND 12 FRIENDS GOT A WIZARD TO HELP US KIDNAP A HOBBIT AND NEARLY FEED HIM TO A DRAGON'), and is very clearly all RAAAH ELVES in the same way that Glóin and Co were.

And then he meets Galadriel, and he asks her for a single strand of her hair. Fëanor, aka. 'The Greatest of the Noldor' made that exact same request of her, and she refused. But here's this dwarf, who kicked up a hell of a shit over being blindfolded when brought into Lothlórien, who asks her for it.

And she gives him THREE.

And then Gimli becomes Legolas' best friend 5ever. Seriously. They agree to go visit Fangorn (which Gimli hates) and the Glittering Caves (which Legolas hates) after the War of the Ring, because they're broadening each other's horizons. And after Aragorn dies, Legolas builds a boat and takes Gimli to the undying lands with him.

HE TAKES GIMLI TO THE UNDYING LANDS. Gimli is the only dwarf ever to set foot there.

So, AGEJAOGEHAOGEHAWOGEAW. It's such a perfect coming full circle, because this is a history seeped in blood and violence. You have Fëanor's kinslaying, the slaying of Elu-Thingol and the fucking fall of Doriath, the imprisonment of Thorin, the desolation of Smaug all hovering in the background, and Legolas and Gimli just go, fuck it, we're off to Valinor to live out our days in heterosexual bliss.

Legolas and Gimli's friendship is probably one of the most underrated things in fandom - at least as far as I've seen. And, as much as I did like the LotR films overall, I was really, really annoyed that Gimli was pretty much comic relief. HE CHARMED GALADRIEL INTO GIVING HIM SOMETHING SHE REFUSED FEANOR. He is SUAVE as a very SUAVE thing. And noble, and wonderful, and YOU SHOULD BE PROUD, GLOIN, BECAUSE YOU DID A REALLY GOOD JOB. CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR SON.

So, yeah.

As for Thorin/Thranduil. I think Thranduil is an asshole. (I mean, don't get me wrong, a pretty asshole if we're going by the films). And Thorin's asshole inclinations probably brought out the worst in Thranduil. He's probably grumpy that everyone else got a nice magicky ring, and all he got was spiders, Sauron in the woods and an neighbourly dragon. So, there is that.

[anki_koda]

Do you know how funy the Heterosexual bliss comment sounds? I hope you don't mind me quoting you over Tumblr because that was the best explanation of the Hobbit ''SIT DOWN, SON, AND LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE TIME ME AND 12 FRIENDS GOT A WIZARD TO HELP US KIDNAP A HOBBIT AND NEARLY FEED HIM TO A DRAGON' but you forgot to add, 'and how a bunch of asshole elves capture as and then demand we give them money'.

Weere did you get that part about Galadriel and Fëanor? Because I re-read the Silmarillion and couldn't find it (and if it was there I'm blind ) Now the part of the undying lands was just magnificent, I never thought he actually would take Gloin and I just know everyone including Galadriel would recieved Gloin with the highest honors.


Hahahaha, is is bad Tolkine never gives us more about Thranduil. I love how much of an asshole he is, and I just can't wait for the magnificent Lee Pace to portray him. That is going to be interesting.

[sigridhr]

Hahaha. It's true, though!

Oh, I don't mind at all. Quote away. :P HAHAHA. Yes. There we go, Hobbit in 30 seconds!

I think it's in the Unfinished Tales? Lemme check.
FOUND IT:

Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), 1 and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

See? They were unfriends. Hair is serious business.

Gimli totally charmed the panties off Galadriel. Because he's a BAMF.

Yeah, we know almost nothing about Legolas – which is odd, given we know quite a bit about pretty much everyone else in the company. But Tolkien did say in one of his letters that Legolas was the least important of all the nine.

[anki_koda]

My God, Fëanor was such a child! hahaha, oh I can't even imagine how unfriends they were it the looks she sent to Saruman in the movie were any indication of unfriendly feelings. Galadriel never liked Saruman, eh? Or, I just thought about it when they speak of it in the Lord of the Rings when they mentioned why Saruman is Chief of the White Council. (or was it the Hobbit, damn memory of mine!)

[sigridhr]

I'd have to re-read some of the stuff in, I think, the Unfinished Tales on the treachery of Saruman. No one knew until LotR that Saruman was a traitor, however.

From what I recall (somebody correct me if I'm getting this wrong), Saruman spent a lot of time brushing aside people's concerns, insisting the Ring had flown from the Anduin into the sea and would never be recovered, and so on. I think this didn't sit quite right with some (Gandalf? I'm not sure), in the sort of I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it sense, but I think Gandalf also said that they acknowledged Saruman as an expert on these matters because it was his specialist area of study, so to speak.

But Saruman was meant to be the head of the order of the Istari (wizards), and that was presumably assigned by whoever sent them to Middle-Earth in the first place, and for whatever purpose they were sent (presumably to manage Sauron).

[anki_koda]

I am so going to get that book! This week I'll walk to college so I can buy it :)

Still, I know somewhere they said Galadriel actually want for Gandalf to be at the head of matters but in the end they decided Saruman would be better for that. Or maybe is my wishful thinking regarding Gandalf/Galadriel relationship.

[sigridhr]

Hmm... That's interesting. Galadriel certainly had a fair bit of foresight thanks to her Dishpan of Ominous Seeing.

Haha! I'm really curious about the Elrond/Galadriel (platonic, obviously) relationship. She's his mother in law, so I want to know what she thinks of him.

[anki_koda]

She must have seen something in Elrond to trust him her beloved daughter. But, yes, I am curious as well over all after what happen to her daughter. Also, I wouldn't mind knowing what kind of relatinship she has with Elrohir and Elladan.

[sigridhr]

Well, I'm sure if Celebrían had wanted it she'd've got her way no matter what. :P They had a son, too, though, didn't they? Amroth? Who was lost... something to do with boats, I can't remember.

And then Arwen doesn't sail west, and they lose her forever. And Elladan and Elrohir's fates are never confirmed, so it's possible they never sailed either.

Excuse me while I nurse my heartbreak in the corner.

[anki_koda]

That's the best family ever. I know Elrond must have suffered but he knows and understands Arwen would only be happy with Aragorn.

[sigridhr]

Elrond has such a laundry list of suffering, it's not even funny.

His uncles are left in the forest to die. His father turns into a star, his mother turns into a bird. He's raised by Maedhros and Maglor, who, respectively, toss themselves into a chasm and go wandering on a beach forever. He makes friends with Gil-Galad.

Gil-Galad dies.
His brother choses to become human.
His brother dies.

He gets married, has three kids, one of them also choses to die.
And his wife gets tortured and (possibly) raped by orcs and sails west.
His sons may or may not also chose to die.

It's a miracle Elrond didn't chose to die.

[anki_koda]

I guess that's what makes him so wise. I mean, with all the suffering you have three choices going mad, die or try and learn and help others. It is quite interesting actually how Elrond was always there trying to help or do something about it.

[sigridhr]

I sort of love everyone in these books, but I love Elrond more. So. Much. Love.

I like how he's described as 'kind as summer', even after all that. You're right – he took the shit life flung at him and made everything better for the people around him. And he's the most welcoming of all the elves we see – he'll pretty much let anyone stay over, and he fosters generations of Dúnedain kids.

[anki_koda]

I have this image of kid!Aragorn watching the Dwarves and Bilbo arrived and suddenly splash! they are covered in water, the Elves laugh and Elrond is just glaring at that spot when he knows Sragorn is hidding with the twins.

I just..I don't know... :) It makes me happy think about it

[anki_koda]

You know? I also find it interesting how much he appreciates Bilbo. I mean, Bilbo seems to be free to do as he like in his house and Elrond seems please by these.

[sigridhr]

Well, Bilbo did prove himself quite the BAMF. I'd show some respect to anyone who laughed at a live dragon and lived to talk about it. :P

[anki_koda]

Can you imagine him arriving to the land of the Valinor and looking around all 'oh, this is pretty'. and going on like totally normal and Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf smiling behind him.

[dragonthalyne]

I keep reading on the internet that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head of the White Council too, but that Gandalf declined, and Saruman wanted the position because he was proud and such. Did Galadriel and Elrond know that Cirdan the third Elven ring to Gandalf? (Narya? I think?)

Speaking of the Elvish rings, I'm really interested in knowing what their powers were. I sort of wonder if Elrond thought that it his duty to stay around during the crazy things that happened at the end of the Third Age because he was a ringbearer of sorts too.

[anki_koda]

I've been wondering the same thing! What kind of powers do the rings have? I mean for Galadriel to be capable of protecting Lothlorien, for Elrond to perhaps keep Imladris and what about the Dwarven Rings? If I remember correctly Thrór had one of the seven and then gave it to Thráin that lost it to Sauron. But, what it really mean for them to posses the ring. Power? Better at crafting things? Protection?

[sigridhr]

Nenya helped keep Lothlórien unchanged (and timeless). I can't find the quote right now, so I can't give you Tolkien's precise wording, but he does say of the rings that they helped preserve and amplify things that the bearer considered important. So, for the Dwarves, this usually meant that the possession of a ring enabled them to create wealth and accumulate it, and build great halls and whatnot.

For Galadriel and Elrond, it was the preservation of their realms, providing safety, security and general 'goodness', I suppose.

And I think Elrond stuck around to see Elros' kin back on the throne as well. He didn't foster the Dúnedain for naught.

[j_quadrifrons]

*flaily agreement*

In addition to Legolas getting Gimli into the Undying Lands (omg) can we talk about how the appendices make it clear that part of the reason Dwarves don't go West is also because Dwarves just - don't leave Middle Earth. Which makes sense. They were created there, they slept there, they were born there, they die there and stay there forever. Gimli is, therefore, the only Dwarf ever to love something *more* than he loves Middle Earth, enough to leave his homeland and follow his heart somewhere else.

*sniffle* Sorry, no, just something in my HEART, GIMLI HOW I LOVE YOU.

[sigridhr]

Gimli is, therefore, the only Dwarf ever to love something *more* than he loves Middle Earth, enough to leave his homeland and follow his heart somewhere else.

Oh, don't mind me. I'm just sitting here SCREAMING.

[anki_koda]

Those are words of wisdom. You express exactly why Gimli left with Legolas.