Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

[sigridhr]

 *smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited. 
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :) 

Comments

[sigridhr]

Chapter I;

"It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife."

It's funny, because the Hobbit mentions a bunch of things – like faries - that are really interesting but don't seem to pop up anywhere else. Where do the fairies live? I mean, they must be at least Hobbit-ish size in order for one to be taken as a wife. Are they chilling with the Entwives?

I love how Bilbo, at 50, is the youngest (I think). They're all older than dirt. Thorin's 195. And Gandalf is so old he remembers riding Woolly Mammoths. He and Galadriel swap stories about the time they chased down a Saber-Toothed Tiger.

"Bilbo rushed along the passage, very angry, and altogether bewildered and bewuthered—this was the most awkward Wednesday he ever remembered."

I love this quote so much! There's something so succinctly hilarious about it – especially with the use of words like bewildered and bewuthered.

I have to say, I like Thorin's entrance in the film better than him getting squashed under Bombur on the mat. (Instead he gets squashed under Bombur in a sack by the trolls).

Speaking of things that were good in the film – that song. Oh, dear, god. That was perfect. Perfect.

"As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves."

This is interesting, especially given how everything plays out in the end. This is Tolkien's sort of temptation of the craftsman – Fëanor falls into this trap too, with his love of the Silmarils. It's not greed flat out, though – it's a love for things they've wrought. It's similar to Galadriel's works in Lothlórien with Nenya – makes you wonder what the dwarf rings could've been if Sauron hadn't got his hands on them.

Except, I remember reading once that Tolkien based the dwarves on the Jews (I think it was in the letters, but I don't have my copy here so I can't confirm – does anyone else know for sure?) – which was part of why they'd lost their homeland – so this sort of avarice is a bit awkward given Jewish stereotypes.

Pompous-prolix!Thorin makes me happy.
Why don't Fili and Kili know their quest? They're his nephews. Headcanon: he didn't tell them anything so that Dís wouldn't find out why he was taking them with him. "Oh, don't mind us. We're just going for a walk. To Erebor. See you in a bit!"

Gandalf is like a used car salesman trying to pawn off Bilbo as a successful burglar.

"He looks more like a grocer than a burglar" / "I think I am right in believing that you think I am no good. I will show you. I have no signs on my door – it was painted a week ago –, and I am quite sure you have come to the wrong house. As soon as I saw your funny faces on the door-step, I had my doubts. But treat it as the right one. Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to talk from hear to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert."

I wish they'd kept this bit in the film. Poor Bilbo has a load of Dwarves turn up uninvited (by him), who proceed to eat him out of house and home, sing him a song by way of explanation and then insult him – I love that he refuses to take it. BILBO IS NOT PUTTING UP WITH YOUR SHIT, THORIN.

And he's so unbelievably brave here. They've been going on about Dragons, and he says 'you've got the wrong man, but I'll step up to the plate to help you anyway, so ha.' I FUCKING LOVE BILBO.

Also, great were-worms??? What the hell are these? Are they from Harad? WHY DID THEY NOT RIDE WERE-WORMS INTO BATTLE ON THE PELENNOR? (I am having epic Dune/Tolkien crossovers in my head right now).

I love how they need Bilbo because 13 is an unlucky number. Hahaha. Triskaidekaphobes, the lot of them.

The bit about apprenticing men to the dwarves is interesting - especially since the dwarves are cast as pretty insular (admittedly, it's from the film, and I can't remember if it's in the books as well, but the line from Elrond about how the Dwarves care nothing for the struggles of others comes to mind). Also notable that they don't bother to grow any food for themselves, apparently – and get by just on trading. The Hollin gate at Moria also suggests that dwarves used to be great neighbours, actually. And, for a people who refuse to teach their language to outsiders, are very friendly.

And I love how Thorin talks about making toys, of all things. I find that really sweet. There aren't many dwarf babies, are there? Since there aren't many dwarf women... So, they must sell most of their toys to the humans.


Chapter II;
Gandalf says "Great Elephants!" Great. Elephants.

Possibly stupid question, but:

"These parts are none too well known, and are too near the mountains. Travellers seldom come this way now. The old maps are no use: things have changed for the worse and the road is unguarded. They have seldom even heard of the king round here, and the less inquisitive you are as you go along, the less trouble you are likely to find."

- we're in Arnor, yes? So, are they talking about the line of Elendil? If so, almost no one was aware that the heir to the throne was pottering about the countryside without any soap and refusing to bathe, but apparently the dwarves were?

(On the trolls:) "not to mention their language, which was not drawing-room fashion at all." Oh, Tolkien, you classy snob.

"[Thorin] came expecting mischief, and didn’t need to see his friends’ legs sticking out of sacks to tell him that things were not all well." That is the most hilarious mental image.

As much as I enjoyed the version of this scene in the film, I love Gandalf's making them argue. It's hilarious.

So, Fili and Kili carry out the pots of coins from the troll hoard – what the hell do they do with them? If they keep them, they must lose them in the Misty Mountains. Or maybe they use them to pay for Elrond's Luxury B&B.

...


As for more general thoughts – the purpose of the mission is interesting, I think. It's personal, and clearly vengeance is a hot button for Thorin since the mention of Thráin's death has him immediately sticking Sauron on a shit list and preparing to march right up to Dol Goldur, Necromancer or no Necromancer, and give him a what-for.

From the perspective of Tolkien as an Anglo-Saxon scholar it's interesting, of course, given vengeance was a driving force for a lot of their heroic deeds. Beowulf is probably the biggest example of this – Beowulf kills Grendel as vengeance for his attacks on Hrothgar's halls, Grendel's mother retaliates, Beowulf retaliates back, and so on. I think there's parallels between Beowulf's death at the hands of the dragon and Thorin's, too, to be found.

It's interesting – you have Thorin acting out of vengeance, Aragorn who acts, arguably, out of duty (there's Elrond's condition that he become King, which is probably a deliberate echo of Elu-Thingol's conditions on Beren), and people like Éowyn, who become heroes out of a desire for glory. Aragorn is clearly an ideal, which makes Eowyn's type and Thorin's type more interesting. Eowyn is a funny one, because – I love her to pieces, but – she was charged with the defence of Meduseld, and she abandoned it. I think it's Aragorn who says something along the lines of 'a time will come for valour without renown', but that's really, really not Eowyn's style. She's, I think, a very traditional Anglo-Saxon hero as well, in regards to her desire for remembrance and glory in battle, but she achieves it at the cost of her responsibilities – it all works out ok in the end for her, but it could've gone very differently.

Thorin's a bit similar, in the sense that he, and the remnants of the people of Erebor, had just built up a reasonably good living for themselves, and he heads off to go tickle the dragon. And he'd've gone to Dol Goldur too, probably, if Gandalf hadn't told him not to. It's vengeance, yes, but it's done at the cost of people he's responsible to – and costs him his direct bloodline.

Then you have the Hobbits, who'd rather not be heroes at all, but there's something that needs doing so we'd best just get on with it as best we can. And they're the true heroes of Tolkien's works – which I find really, really charming.

[sigridhr]

Also, can we talk about the fact that Thorin wears yellow stockings?

[(Anonymous)]

Turns out I don't have time to reread the Hobbit (damn school and poor time management!), but I'm going to read your discussions because that was BRILLIANT!

[j_quadrifrons]

Alas, my notes have nothing interesting about the actual chapters, so I will just point out an interesting thing I picked up from reading The Annotated Hobbit for my library book discussion:

The narrative travels, as it were, back in time the further west it goes. These first chapters are very Edwardian, with the Shire and Bilbo and the troll's not-drawing-room-fashion language. By the time we get to Rivendell we're in high Victorian romance, like the retellings of Arthurian legend that were so popular then (picture a Waterhouse painting, which actually is what I always pictured when reading about Tolkien's Elves). Beorn is a much more Germanic fairy tale-like creature who wouldn't be out of place in a Grimm collection. Mirkwood is a medieval Celtic story about the Fair Folk, who are beautiful and dangerous and capricious. And by the time we get to the Mountain, we're in full-blown Norse epic. (The passage with Bilbo stealing a cup from Smaug almost exactly parallels the same incident in Beowulf, and the whole riddling about his name with the dragon is drawn from the song of Fafnir.) And all the way through it's done so elegantly and so seamlessly that by the time you get to the end you can hardly remember what it was like to live in a house with a clock and a pocket-handkerchief.

(The thing that pleases me most about this is that it's exactly the same sort of thing that James Joyce does in Ulysses, only less showy and with much more engrossing effect.)

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Woah, it's good to see how much discussion's been going on!

I loved your intro post sigridhr - it was nice to have it to look back on as I was reading the chapters.

Is it strange that Dwalin has a blue beard, and Fili and Kili have yellow beards? Is that a common thing with dwarves, or is it never mentioned anywhere else?

Also, I had quite forgotten that trolls' purses talk!

[meinterrupted]

AH! I'm so late!

But yes, I finally finished chapters 1 & 2--not because they're hard or long, but because I've been writing smut, hee!

Anyway, I was really struck by the tone of the book, and having just seen the movie, how different it is from it and LOTR. It reads very much like a simple children's book (which it is, kind of) with very little political maneuvering etc.

I'm very glad that the movie complicated the dwarves' reason for the quest, because as I was reading, I was really struck by just how greedy the dwarves are. Thorin says they "have a good bit laid by and are not so badly off" -- here Thorin stroked the gold chain round his neck -- "we still mean to get it back, and to bring our curses home to Smaug -- if we can." Which makes me make annoyed, huffing sounds, because if you're doing very well (as it seems they are) how can you be so greedy that you'll risk life and limb for this treasure?

And oh my, I giggled my whole way through the Troll scene. Just giggled madly.

[starliings.livejournal.com]

Wow sorry for being late to the discussion (blame university!)

I love reading all your discussions, I find it really interesting as a relative Tolkien newbie just how MUCH there is to learn about, it's so amazing and exciting and just COOL.

So yeah I love these two chapters, I love the humour of Bilbo just being generally disgruntled at all these dwarves out of nowhere (aka my internal monologue in almost all social situations!).

Also I thought this part was interesting....
'Indeed they hardly know a good bit of work from a bad, though thy usually have a good notion of the current market value; and they can't make a thing for themselves, not even mend a little loose scale in their armour.'

...It just reminded me of Smaug's eventual downfall, how they had to look for the gap in the armour to find his weak spot. Possible foreshadowing??

All in all YAY THE HOBBIT

[halberdier]

Okay, I *finally* got my act together and got a nice new copy of The Hobbit, since my old one is hiding in my bookshelves and won't cooperate. And new one is pretty! With illustrations! So I'm cracking into it tonight, and hopefully will have thoughts and insights beyond just "PRETTY!"

:D

[j_quadrifrons]

I picked up a copy of Corey Olsen (The Tolkien Professor)'s new book "Exploring J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit" from work and I am finally getting into it, now that it is two days overdue. :\ But! One point that I had never noticed before - In his rush when Gandalf kicks him out the door, Bilbo is so unprepared that he goes out without a coat and ends up wearing Balin's spare cloak and hood. I always remembered him getting new clothes in Laketown, but I'd forgotten about this set: Bilbo spends the entire adventure in borrowed clothes. It's a cute little bit of symbolism, and I rather wish they'd kept it in the movie; visually it would make the point rather nicely.