sigridhr | Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

Entry tags:

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

*smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces.
There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources.
There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited.
If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com.

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on.

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Woah, it's good to see how much discussion's been going on!

I loved your intro post

sigridhr - it was nice to have it to look back on as I was reading the chapters.

Is it strange that Dwalin has a blue beard, and Fili and Kili have yellow beards? Is that a common thing with dwarves, or is it never mentioned anywhere else?

Also, I had quite forgotten that trolls' purses talk!

My crappy internet ate my comment. THRICE.

Thanks! <3

Yeah, I wondered about that. I don't recall any other dwarves being described that way, but I think (though I can't find it now that I've had a look, so I may have made it up), that Celeborn was once described with 'silvery-blue' hair or something similar. I assume blue is grey or white, and yellow is blond.

Though, I prefer to imagine them as looking like those troll dolls, only with beards instead of crazy hairdos.

The troll scene is so awesome. SO. Awesome.

Grey and blond makes a lot of sense, now you put it that way. I think I was just tempted by the image of Thorin and his rainbow dwarves. Like all the coloured hoods! It's a shame basically zero colour made it into any of their costumes in the film.

The trolls are such great characters. Even though they're discussing how to kill the dwarves, that scene is just so much fun!

It is! I miss Thorin's silver tassel. And Bilbo borrowing a hood. :P That said, I love the costuming for the film too – Kíli's got some beautiful brocade, and Thorin's outfit is gorgeous. Not to mention Bofur's hat.

That is true, the costumes are beautiful. I suppose bright colours doesn't really lend itself to dramatic and broody outfits. I'm not sure what's going on with Bifur and the orc axe in his head though.

By the way, did I ever reply to the message you sent me on tumblr saying you got my card? I can't remember, but I'm glad it got there okay! :)

I secretly suspect that they were just trying to have one less person to write lines for. And PJ being a horror movie director probably came up with it. I don't think poor Bombur has any lines in the film at all.

No, not so much with the broody. Bilbo has some lovely colourful outfits, though.

I can't tell if it's buried in my inbox, or if Tumblr ate it, but either way, thank you. <3 :)

I just remembered something I wanted to mention - Gandalf says that Thror was killed by Azog the goblin, but in the film he was an orc. Is that an interchangeable use of the word orc and goblin being used?

If you don't mind me interrumping, when I read the Hobbit in English I noticed this which makes me wonder because I thought they were the same. In the Spanish version they don't mark the differences between the word Orc and Goblin hence my confussion, and then Gandalf used the word and I was confused again. So, perhaps they make it to work for the plot? I mean, in film Azog has a bigger role than in the book.

And I forgot to sign in with my last comment :)

No, sure go ahead, you're not interrupting! :)

I don't know if it's in all the copies, but in my copy of The Hobbit, before the first chapter there's a couple of pages on the languages and runes of Middle Earth, and it says:

Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of the dolphin-kind.

Also, wikipedia says:

Tolkien sometimes, particularly in The Hobbit, used the word goblin instead of orc to describe the same type of creature, with the smaller cave-dwelling variety that lived in the Misty Mountains being referred to as goblins and the larger ones elsewhere referred to as orcs.

So when I read The Hobbit before seeing the film I thought orcs and goblins were the same, but I don't think they are?

That's kind of interesting actually. Because in my copy of the Hobbit the used both as if refering to different races, of corse it would be a matter of traduction in which, perhaps the persng in charge, was a little confused by this. But, in the LOTR the use of the word Orc is more frequent...at least in mine :)

Is that in non-English versions of the books? It is interesting to see what changes are made in translations.

And in the film as well, they had orcs riding wargs, but in the book it's goblins.

Yes, I have my copy in Spanish and well, in the Film as well now that I think about it.

I've always thought of goblins and orcs being about as similar as, say, Gondorians and Rohirrim - both the same species, with different phenotypes. From all the various notes and letters and bits I've read, that seems to be what Tolkien was trying to do with them. I think PJ does something different - he really does treat orcs from different regions as entirely different species, more like the difference between Elves and Men and hobbits.

Literarily speaking, the goblins in The Hobbit seem to be directly descended from the goblins from the North Pole that he wrote about for his children - "Letters from Father Christmas" is my absolute favorite discovery of the past couple of years.

I've always thought of goblins and orcs being about as similar as, say, Gondorians and Rohirrim - both the same species, with different phenotypes.

That's what I gathered from The Hobbit and LotR as well. Basically, goblins are orcs that live underground, and have evolved into a different ethnicity rather than a completely separate race. Like how a homo sapiens sapiens from Norway has blonde hair, blue eyes, and very fair skin, while an Aboriginal person from Australia--who is the exactly same species--looks so different. ANd since the goblins have chosen to live underground, they have hugely different societies and structures, etc.

Honestly, something that's really started to be interesting to me is the sort of society that breeds the types of sapient beings that seem to so relish the art of war and killing. The obviously don't value life, which makes me think their birth rate must be extraordinarily high, yet we never see any obvious women. So, are the women hiding away in the tunnels with litters of baby goblins and orcs? Is it a dog-eat-dog world, where only the strongest out of a litter of five or seven survive?

Is this in some of the supplementary material?

It seems that Tolkien was never really satisfied with Orcs. He could never decide if they were corrupted Elves or Men, he didn't know if they had free will or not, he didn't really know where they came from, and toward the end of his life, he was deeply uncomfortable with the idea that they were irredeemably evil, and was trying to adjust his universe to allow them a little more latitude.

Note that we also see the Orcs almost exclusively at war - with the possible exception of the goblins in the Misty Mountains. We see no Orc women for the exact same reason we see no Dwarf women.

(If one is so inclined, there is always the Russian fanfic-novel "The Last Ringbearer," which tells the story of LotR from the Orcish point of view.)

Well, in a children's novel, the distinction between "good" and "bad" should be relatively clear, which is why I can forgive the goblins in The Hobbit for being irredeemably evil. Especially since the Dwarves basically invaded the goblin's home.

But in LotR they are very problematic. I'm hoping that this reading club will force me to take a deeper look this time, rather than just "askdjflaksjhdflj HOBBITS! asdjf;aksdj SAM SAM EOWYN!!" which is basically how I've read it all the other times.

When Barad-dûr collapses you get the following description:

“all the host of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their heats, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid.” [6.IV.] (Emphasis mine)

I sort of wonder if the orcs represent the 'I was just following orders, sir', kind of evil? You have a contrast:

“the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope. But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle.”

between 'beasts enslaved', which kill themselves or despair (in the knowledge of what they've done, or the absence of leadership?), versus the humans who literally signed up for this in full knowledge, who are independently fighting for the cause.

The orcs aren't explicitly mentioned here, but I think there is a distinction between the thrall of the orcs (who were made by Morgoth, I think, and could be seen as part of his 'plan' in a similar way to how Elves/Men/Good Folk are part of Eru's 'plan'), and men like the Haradrim or the Mouth of Sauron. There is sort of a question here as to what extent the orcs had free will at all.

Edited 2013-01-16 03:52 (UTC)

First off, I just want to say that I got all giddy when jenavira wrote "phenotype" (I'm a biologist doing a lot of genetics work).

I once read an article that made the argument for orcs reproducing via parthenogenesis. Tolkien mentions the existence of females for all other species so maybe there's only one sex of orc/goblin. Here's the link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/occams-corner/2012/dec/20/hobbits-hypotheses

That article was really interesting - thanks for sharing it! I literally only covered parthenogenesis in a lecture the day before you posted that, so that was a nice coincidence!

Sorry about the delayed response (university does tend to get in the way of these things!).

both the same species, with different phenotypes

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and it makes sense to me. I definitely think the orcs and goblins seem more different in the film than in the book.

Ah, I've heard so many good things about Letters from Father Christmas; I really must check it out sometime!

No worries! It happens. (Do find Letters from Father Christmas - it's like a little mini-course in how Tolkien's imagination gets away from him and just turns into this huge sprawling THING, I love it to death.)

I read somewhere someone saying that PJ's Dwarves look like cartoon-ish ones. Which I totally disagreed. I mean, they looked as the Dwarves I imagine from the Silmarillion. They are warriors, miners and toy makers and the clothing was fiotting for the task they were about to engage in. I miss the hoods, of course, and Thorin's yellow socks and some other things but, still, I thought PJ did a great work with their clothing and weapons.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject