sigridhr | Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

Entry tags:

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

*smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces.
There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources.
There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited.
If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com.

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on.

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Bilbo enjoyed that one , I bet. I can almost imagine his eye roll every time the Dwarves came up with something really rude or , not completely idiotic, but not appropiate for the situation.

Thorin...mmm, where to start. He is rather complicated, I think. Once you start catching up with Bilbo you can almost guess what his Baggins or Took-ish part would do/say. But Thorin is a little harder to read. He is arrogant, proud and a complete asshole but, then again, he has his reasons and the people closest to him could tell he isn't that bad. Fili and Kili come to my mind when I think of a softer Thorin and then, of course, Bilbo who he grows to love...I mean, respect...respect...:)

I love his little temper tantrum when he's trying to smuggle the Dwarves out of Mirkwood. He's so put-upon and they're all so grumpy. It's hilarious.

Thorin is complicated. I like that about him. I think you can read him as both hero and anti-hero – his actions make sense, but are also selfish. He's proud and arrogant, but you could also read Bilbo's insistence that he can, in fact, be of use against a dragon, please don't be insulting me in my house, I thank you, as arrogance and pride as well. As soon as they say he's not any good, he stands up and insists he'll go along with it anyway to prove them wrong. Almost any failing can be a virtue in another situation.

It's a bit like the Eowyn/Thorin parallel I drew above – Eowyn and Bilbo were successful, Thorin not so much. But I think all their hearts were in the right place. Eowyn is covetous of glory in the same way Thorin is covetous of Erebor's gold. And Bilbo, I suppose, of his pride.

But he certainly does come to love Bilbo (Platonically! XD). That's why he flips his shit over the Arkenstone, I think, because his ~~boyfriend~~ new best-friend stole it from him (tricksy Baggins that he is).

Well, first of all, Good Morning Everyone!

And, to continue our discusion, Thorin was so in denial it was so funny...then, the end made it all hurt.

The first time I read the Hobbit I didn't understand why Biblo had betrayed his friends in such a way. I was as angry as Thorin and Co. because I had may faith put on Bilbo that he would help them, even if that means fight Elves and Men. And then, he goes and does that...

The second time I realized just how much I started understanding the Dwarves and how sympathetic I feel for them the first time around. Of course, the second time I got why Bilbo was doing it. He was sacrifying that friendship he had forged during the journey for their well-being.

Recently, I heard the parallel between the Arkenstone and the silmaril. But, there is something that bothers me about this. The Arkestone was supposed to be a jewel they found on the mountain while the silmaril was Fëanor's most valuable construction. So, they are comparing the love that creates on their owners and how this 'love' can turn into greedy and stubborness?

I so apologize for the spelling and grammar! i'm still half sleep and I keep getting the spelling in Spanish rather than in English :)

Edited 2013-01-12 12:51 (UTC)

I got a really thoughtful comment from Dreamflower02 on one of my fics about Bilbo and the Arkenstone, and I hope they won't mind me quoting it here:

I find that his most important characteristic is his deep generosity, compassion and mercy. You find that through his whole story--he helps the Dwarves, even though they are not very nice to him; he spares Gollum, who was ready to murder him; he gives away the Arkenstone to help buy peace; he gives away most of the treasure he earned on his adventure; he brings in an orphaned relative to raise when he is 99! As you point out, he voluntarily (although with help) GIVES AWAY the Ring that is supposed to be so powerful! and he even gives up the last of his treasure to Sam!

He's willing to repeatedly put his own well-being at risk for the sake of others.

I think a better comparison can be made with others who coveted the Silmaril, rather than Fëanor – like Elu Thingol, and the Dwarves who made the Nauglamír. Then we have greed and stubborness over something that was not their own work.

I'm curious as to how much of Thingol's request of Beren that he get a Silmaril from Morgoth was meant to be just a task so utterly impossible he'd be doomed to failure, and how much was Thingol actually wanting a Silmaril.

Hahaha, you manage better than I do when I'm wide awake and in my native language. :P

You know? This makes me think about something my aunt told me recently. She just started reading The Hobbit and she told me Bilbo is more innocent than Frodo that it was one of the reasons why the Ring nver affected Bilbo the way it did Frodo. Of course, she hasn't read the LOTR but I guess she is partialy right. Although, I wouldn't call it innocence as much as that compassion in Bilbo, that something that makes him so remarkable. Frodo, of course is equally remarkable but as Tolkien stated he is suffering something Bilbo never got the chance to.

Speaking of Elves and Dwarves, I just have to ask because is something that recently blossom in the Tolkien fandom.

What do you think about the pairings? Canon/non-canon

I am refering, of course, at the Hate!Love relationship between Thorin/Thranduil and the future Gimli/Legolas.

OK. MY GIMLI FEELS, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM.

I have so much love for the Legolas/Gimli Friendship. Let's look at Gimli for a second. His father was Glóin who was taken prisoner by Legolas' father, and there was MUCH BAD BLOOD over that. Then, Thranduil shows up and is all 'gimme your treasure, yo, also here's the dude who killed the dragon, he's my credentials, I'm legit, pay up' and Thorin is all FUCK THAT NOISE. Then he dies.

So, Gimli grows up with all of Glóin's war stories ('SIT DOWN, SON, AND LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE TIME ME AND 12 FRIENDS GOT A WIZARD TO HELP US KIDNAP A HOBBIT AND NEARLY FEED HIM TO A DRAGON'), and is very clearly all RAAAH ELVES in the same way that Glóin and Co were.

And then he meets Galadriel, and he asks her for a single strand of her hair. Fëanor, aka. 'The Greatest of the Noldor' made that exact same request of her, and she refused. But here's this dwarf, who kicked up a hell of a shit over being blindfolded when brought into Lothlórien, who asks her for it.

And she gives him THREE.

And then Gimli becomes Legolas' best friend 5ever. Seriously. They agree to go visit Fangorn (which Gimli hates) and the Glittering Caves (which Legolas hates) after the War of the Ring, because they're broadening each other's horizons. And after Aragorn dies, Legolas builds a boat and takes Gimli to the undying lands with him.

HE TAKES GIMLI TO THE UNDYING LANDS. Gimli is the only dwarf ever to set foot there.

So, AGEJAOGEHAOGEHAWOGEAW. It's such a perfect coming full circle, because this is a history seeped in blood and violence. You have Fëanor's kinslaying, the slaying of Elu-Thingol and the fucking fall of Doriath, the imprisonment of Thorin, the desolation of Smaug all hovering in the background, and Legolas and Gimli just go, fuck it, we're off to Valinor to live out our days in heterosexual bliss.

Legolas and Gimli's friendship is probably one of the most underrated things in fandom - at least as far as I've seen. And, as much as I did like the LotR films overall, I was really, really annoyed that Gimli was pretty much comic relief. HE CHARMED GALADRIEL INTO GIVING HIM SOMETHING SHE REFUSED FEANOR. He is SUAVE as a very SUAVE thing. And noble, and wonderful, and YOU SHOULD BE PROUD, GLOIN, BECAUSE YOU DID A REALLY GOOD JOB. CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR SON.

So, yeah.

As for Thorin/Thranduil. I think Thranduil is an asshole. (I mean, don't get me wrong, a pretty asshole if we're going by the films). And Thorin's asshole inclinations probably brought out the worst in Thranduil. He's probably grumpy that everyone else got a nice magicky ring, and all he got was spiders, Sauron in the woods and an neighbourly dragon. So, there is that.

Do you know how funy the Heterosexual bliss comment sounds? I hope you don't mind me quoting you over Tumblr because that was the best explanation of the Hobbit ''SIT DOWN, SON, AND LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE TIME ME AND 12 FRIENDS GOT A WIZARD TO HELP US KIDNAP A HOBBIT AND NEARLY FEED HIM TO A DRAGON' but you forgot to add, 'and how a bunch of asshole elves capture as and then demand we give them money'.

Weere did you get that part about Galadriel and Fëanor? Because I re-read the Silmarillion and couldn't find it (and if it was there I'm blind ) Now the part of the undying lands was just magnificent, I never thought he actually would take Gloin and I just know everyone including Galadriel would recieved Gloin with the highest honors.

Hahahaha, is is bad Tolkine never gives us more about Thranduil. I love how much of an asshole he is, and I just can't wait for the magnificent Lee Pace to portray him. That is going to be interesting.

Hahaha. It's true, though!

Oh, I don't mind at all. Quote away. :P HAHAHA. Yes. There we go, Hobbit in 30 seconds!

I think it's in the Unfinished Tales? Lemme check.
FOUND IT:

Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), 1 and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

See? They were unfriends. Hair is serious business.

Gimli totally charmed the panties off Galadriel. Because he's a BAMF.

Yeah, we know almost nothing about Legolas – which is odd, given we know quite a bit about pretty much everyone else in the company. But Tolkien did say in one of his letters that Legolas was the least important of all the nine.

My God, Fëanor was such a child! hahaha, oh I can't even imagine how unfriends they were it the looks she sent to Saruman in the movie were any indication of unfriendly feelings. Galadriel never liked Saruman, eh? Or, I just thought about it when they speak of it in the Lord of the Rings when they mentioned why Saruman is Chief of the White Council. (or was it the Hobbit, damn memory of mine!)

I'd have to re-read some of the stuff in, I think, the Unfinished Tales on the treachery of Saruman. No one knew until LotR that Saruman was a traitor, however.

From what I recall (somebody correct me if I'm getting this wrong), Saruman spent a lot of time brushing aside people's concerns, insisting the Ring had flown from the Anduin into the sea and would never be recovered, and so on. I think this didn't sit quite right with some (Gandalf? I'm not sure), in the sort of I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it sense, but I think Gandalf also said that they acknowledged Saruman as an expert on these matters because it was his specialist area of study, so to speak.

But Saruman was meant to be the head of the order of the Istari (wizards), and that was presumably assigned by whoever sent them to Middle-Earth in the first place, and for whatever purpose they were sent (presumably to manage Sauron).

I am so going to get that book! This week I'll walk to college so I can buy it :)

Still, I know somewhere they said Galadriel actually want for Gandalf to be at the head of matters but in the end they decided Saruman would be better for that. Or maybe is my wishful thinking regarding Gandalf/Galadriel relationship.

Hmm... That's interesting. Galadriel certainly had a fair bit of foresight thanks to her Dishpan of Ominous Seeing.

Haha! I'm really curious about the Elrond/Galadriel (platonic, obviously) relationship. She's his mother in law, so I want to know what she thinks of him.

(no subject)

anki_koda - 2013-01-12 21:18 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

sigridhr - 2013-01-12 21:21 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

anki_koda - 2013-01-12 21:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

sigridhr - 2013-01-12 21:29 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

anki_koda - 2013-01-12 21:32 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

sigridhr - 2013-01-12 21:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

anki_koda - 2013-01-12 21:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

anki_koda - 2013-01-12 21:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

sigridhr - 2013-01-12 21:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

anki_koda - 2013-01-12 22:57 (UTC) - Expand

I keep reading on the internet that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head of the White Council too, but that Gandalf declined, and Saruman wanted the position because he was proud and such. Did Galadriel and Elrond know that Cirdan the third Elven ring to Gandalf? (Narya? I think?)

Speaking of the Elvish rings, I'm really interested in knowing what their powers were. I sort of wonder if Elrond thought that it his duty to stay around during the crazy things that happened at the end of the Third Age because he was a ringbearer of sorts too.

(no subject)

anki_koda - 2013-01-16 22:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

sigridhr - 2013-01-17 00:56 (UTC) - Expand

*flaily agreement*

In addition to Legolas getting Gimli into the Undying Lands (omg) can we talk about how the appendices make it clear that part of the reason Dwarves don't go West is also because Dwarves just - don't leave Middle Earth. Which makes sense. They were created there, they slept there, they were born there, they die there and stay there forever. Gimli is, therefore, the only Dwarf ever to love something *more* than he loves Middle Earth, enough to leave his homeland and follow his heart somewhere else.

*sniffle* Sorry, no, just something in my HEART, GIMLI HOW I LOVE YOU.

Gimli is, therefore, the only Dwarf ever to love something *more* than he loves Middle Earth, enough to leave his homeland and follow his heart somewhere else.

Oh, don't mind me. I'm just sitting here SCREAMING.

Those are words of wisdom. You express exactly why Gimli left with Legolas.

To be fair to Frodo, the ring's influence increased as Sauron's did – Frodo was not only marching it straight into Mordor, but he owned it at a time when Sauron was much stronger.

I'd say Sam is pretty much as close to without guile as you can get, but he was severely tempted, just as Frodo was. I don't think anyone at all could have destroyed the Ring – that's why Gollum had to do it by accident.

I was thinking the same. The Ring's power awaken when he sense Sauron's power growing. Frodo was actually pretty good at keeping it for such a long time and then standing at the mouth of Mount Doom ready to throw it.

I believe, as you do, no one would be able to destroy. It was luck that Gollum arrived at the perfect moment.

‘But this is terrible!’ cried Frodo. ‘Far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do? For now I am really afraid. What am I to do? What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!’

‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.’

[...]

'He deserves death.’

‘Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many – yours not least. In any case we did not kill him: he is very old and very wretched. The Wood-elves have him in prison, but they treat him with such kindness as they can find in their wise hearts.’

Luck? Or Gandalf meddling?

Good Point.

I mean, we know Gandalf likes to involve in every single thing that happens on Middle Earth and there is something about him that always lead him to take the right decisions. Perhaps is his Maiar powers.

I have a theory about this (I wrote an essay on it, actually). I think Gandalf is an embodiment of wisdom, in contrast to Saruman's knowledge. Gandalf sees the pieces of information, and synthesizes them into something he can act upon.

So, he's wise in the sense that he knows a) there's a dragon in Erebor that needs to be dealt with, because if shit goes down and the dragon sides with Sauron, Imladris and many other places are, literally toast; b) there's a Necromancer in Dol Goldur who is very probably Sauron, and that needs to be dealt with; and c) I've just been approached by a Dwarf who wants the dragon gone, and I've got a backdoor key.

So, he takes this information, and he has the wisdom to see that a burglar would be better than a warrior, and that Bilbo, who he'd noted, and sort of put aside in the back of his mind, might be precisely what is needed – presumably because he's noted how resilient Hobbits are, and how wise Bilbo himself is (or at least has the potential to be).

Saruman, on the other hand, becomes lured by the knowledge that he amasses about the Ring. About it's power, its indestructibility, and the inevitability that, if it is found, Sauron will reclaim it. And he despairs – which is pretty much a one-track road to DOOM in Tolkien's writings – and decides his best course of action is to try and take the Ring himself.

But a wiser person might have seen that there was, indeed, hope, and that no matter how powerful Saruman was, himself, he could not wield the Ring without it doing Sauron's will.

This semester I sign up for a Tolkien class. I am so going to ask for your help if you don't mind.

I never thought about it that way, but you do make a fine, perfect, point about. In the end all of Gandalf's plans play out well it is because he trust in the right people. Hobbits mostly. :)

YOU HAVE A TOLKIEN CLASS?!
WHY AM I NOT ENROLLED AT YOUR SCHOOL? CAN I JUST COME AND SIT THERE AND BE EXCITED?

Rule 24. When you want shit done, hire a Hobbit. :P