Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

[sigridhr]

 *smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited. 
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :) 

Comments

[sigridhr]

This is actually covered, sort of, in The Unfinished Tales - Tolkien wrote up a piece called "The Quest of Erebor", which is basically a conversation between Gandalf and Frodo about Thorin and Bilbo and the whole dragon business. :P

He has this to say on the matter:

Somehow I had been attracted by Bilbo long before, as a child, and a young hobbit: he had not quite come of age when I had last seen him. He had stayed in my mind ever since, with his eagerness and his bright eyes, and his love of tales, and his questions about the wide world outside the Shire. As soon as I entered the Shire I heard news of him. He was getting talked about, it seemed. Both his parents had died early for Shire-folk, at about eighty; and he had never married. He was already growing a bit queer, they said, and went off for days by himself. He could be seen talking to strangers, even Dwarves.

"Even Dwarves!' Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart (I guessed) for a sight of the wide world. I laughed at myself; but I went off at once to have a look at Bilbo, to see what twenty years bad done to him, and whether he was as promising as gossip seemed to make out. But be was not at home.

[...]

"So I rode off back to Thorin in haste, to tackle the difficult task of persuading him to put aside his lofty designs and go secretly – and take Bilbo with him. Without seeing Bilbo first. It was a mistake, and nearly proved disastrous. For Bilbo had changed, of course. At least, he was getting rather greedy and fat, and his old desires had dwindled down to a sort of private dream. Nothing could have been more dismaying than to find it actually in danger of coming true! He was altogether bewildered, and made a complete fool of himself. Thorin would have left in a rage, but for another strange chance, which I will mention in a moment."

He's referring here to giving Thorin the key to the Lonely Mountain.

So, I guess, he just took a fancy to him. He gives justification for choosing a Hobbit (a burglar over a warrior because stealth is their only hope of success, and that a Hobbit would be an unknown to Smaug, and therefore might be in their favour. Gandalf also seems to pay a lot of attention to Hobbit lineage and history – he knows his Tooks and Bagginses from his block-headed Bracegirdles from Hardbottle, so to speak, so I think he knew that Bilbo's Tookishness would do him well. Bilbo himself was unusual in his adventurousness and his associations – he'd spoken to Dwarves before (remember, he knew the correct polite response to 'at your service'), and would therefore be much better suited and more receptive to travelling with a bunch of grumpy old Dwarves than your average Hobbit.

But you're right – Bilbo doesn't seem very remarkable – which just makes him all the more remarkable! One of my favourite bits from the Council of Elrond sequence, which I was sad they cut out of the films, was when Bilbo stands up and says he'll take the ring to Mordor because "he started this business, so he might as well finish it". It's the same, pig-headed bravery you get in the Hobbit – he, of course, didn't start it any more than he signed up to be a burglar, but, by golly, he's going to do it!

I love Bilbo so, so much.

[anki_koda]

Thank you for that!! I really need to get my hands on The Unfinished Tales. This certanly shows what a sneaky Wizard Gandalf is.

As you said, Bilbo is actually quite remarkable. I also love that part of the Council of Elrond because Boromir was about to laugh at this Halfling for even suggesting that until he realized half the room is looking at Bilbo with admiration, respect and foundness. I always thought Elrond, Gandalf, even Aragorn (and I hope Glorfindel and Erestor) were trying to protect Bilbo for further damage from the Ring. Which, actually, is one of the reasons they didn't allow him to go on que quest.

But, there is something about Bilbo that always makes you think twice about him which I believe was the first thing that attracted Thorin to him. In a no romantic way, of course. ;)

[sigridhr]

All of the supplementary stuff is great for the super-nerdy. :)

Gandalf is such a sneaky wizard! He pretty much just goes around stirring shit up and smoking weed. And, you know, helping Bilbo use the One Ring of Sauron to do magic tricks at his birthday party. Which is hilariously badass.

YES! I love that bit so much! It's so telling that Bilbo has the respect of all these great elf lords (and Aragorn). And then they let him sail west with them.

Hahaha. You should read the The Quest of Erebor, because I think you'd enjoy it a lot. Thorin is a complete asshole about Bilbo at first – waaay more than in the books.

What do you mean non-romantic? XD

[anki_koda]

What do you mean non-romantic? XD Of course! It's purely platonic (yeah right...speaking of The Nile)

Oh, I bet he was a complete asshole, even if the Hobbit doesn't mention that much you can feel it. If one read the Silmarillion one can understand a little about Dwarves, of course I bet the complementary readings give you even more insight on how they behave and how deep can be their resentment towards Smaug and Elves.

But, I bet Bilbo didn't let Thorin get his way that easily, did he?

[sigridhr]

They were absolutely not in love. Nope. No sir. :P

Haha, yeah. Thorin does rather exude pompous asshat at times. I can't actually remember reading much about Dwarves in The History of Middle Earth. I'd have to re-read – maybe someone will come along who's better read than I am to fill in the gaps, though.

But definitely a lot of the resentment stems from Doriath and the - err - incident with the Nauglamir, I think.

Bilbo was totally running the show. After they crossed the Misty Mountains it was the do-as-Bilbo-says show, with Thorin as his official sock puppet.

[anki_koda]

Bilbo enjoyed that one , I bet. I can almost imagine his eye roll every time the Dwarves came up with something really rude or , not completely idiotic, but not appropiate for the situation.

Thorin...mmm, where to start. He is rather complicated, I think. Once you start catching up with Bilbo you can almost guess what his Baggins or Took-ish part would do/say. But Thorin is a little harder to read. He is arrogant, proud and a complete asshole but, then again, he has his reasons and the people closest to him could tell he isn't that bad. Fili and Kili come to my mind when I think of a softer Thorin and then, of course, Bilbo who he grows to love...I mean, respect...respect...:)

[sigridhr]

I love his little temper tantrum when he's trying to smuggle the Dwarves out of Mirkwood. He's so put-upon and they're all so grumpy. It's hilarious.

Thorin is complicated. I like that about him. I think you can read him as both hero and anti-hero – his actions make sense, but are also selfish. He's proud and arrogant, but you could also read Bilbo's insistence that he can, in fact, be of use against a dragon, please don't be insulting me in my house, I thank you, as arrogance and pride as well. As soon as they say he's not any good, he stands up and insists he'll go along with it anyway to prove them wrong. Almost any failing can be a virtue in another situation.

It's a bit like the Eowyn/Thorin parallel I drew above – Eowyn and Bilbo were successful, Thorin not so much. But I think all their hearts were in the right place. Eowyn is covetous of glory in the same way Thorin is covetous of Erebor's gold. And Bilbo, I suppose, of his pride.

But he certainly does come to love Bilbo (Platonically! XD). That's why he flips his shit over the Arkenstone, I think, because his boyfriend new best-friend stole it from him (tricksy Baggins that he is).

[anki_koda]

Well, first of all, Good Morning Everyone!

And, to continue our discusion, Thorin was so in denial it was so funny...then, the end made it all hurt.

The first time I read the Hobbit I didn't understand why Biblo had betrayed his friends in such a way. I was as angry as Thorin and Co. because I had may faith put on Bilbo that he would help them, even if that means fight Elves and Men. And then, he goes and does that...

The second time I realized just how much I started understanding the Dwarves and how sympathetic I feel for them the first time around. Of course, the second time I got why Bilbo was doing it. He was sacrifying that friendship he had forged during the journey for their well-being.

Recently, I heard the parallel between the Arkenstone and the silmaril. But, there is something that bothers me about this. The Arkestone was supposed to be a jewel they found on the mountain while the silmaril was Fëanor's most valuable construction. So, they are comparing the love that creates on their owners and how this 'love' can turn into greedy and stubborness?

I so apologize for the spelling and grammar! i'm still half sleep and I keep getting the spelling in Spanish rather than in English :)

[sigridhr]

I got a really thoughtful comment from Dreamflower02 on one of my fics about Bilbo and the Arkenstone, and I hope they won't mind me quoting it here:

I find that his most important characteristic is his deep generosity, compassion and mercy. You find that through his whole story--he helps the Dwarves, even though they are not very nice to him; he spares Gollum, who was ready to murder him; he gives away the Arkenstone to help buy peace; he gives away most of the treasure he earned on his adventure; he brings in an orphaned relative to raise when he is 99! As you point out, he voluntarily (although with help) GIVES AWAY the Ring that is supposed to be so powerful! and he even gives up the last of his treasure to Sam!

He's willing to repeatedly put his own well-being at risk for the sake of others.

I think a better comparison can be made with others who coveted the Silmaril, rather than Fëanor – like Elu Thingol, and the Dwarves who made the Nauglamír. Then we have greed and stubborness over something that was not their own work.

I'm curious as to how much of Thingol's request of Beren that he get a Silmaril from Morgoth was meant to be just a task so utterly impossible he'd be doomed to failure, and how much was Thingol actually wanting a Silmaril.

Hahaha, you manage better than I do when I'm wide awake and in my native language. :P

[anki_koda]

You know? This makes me think about something my aunt told me recently. She just started reading The Hobbit and she told me Bilbo is more innocent than Frodo that it was one of the reasons why the Ring nver affected Bilbo the way it did Frodo. Of course, she hasn't read the LOTR but I guess she is partialy right. Although, I wouldn't call it innocence as much as that compassion in Bilbo, that something that makes him so remarkable. Frodo, of course is equally remarkable but as Tolkien stated he is suffering something Bilbo never got the chance to.

Speaking of Elves and Dwarves, I just have to ask because is something that recently blossom in the Tolkien fandom.

What do you think about the pairings? Canon/non-canon

[anki_koda]

I am refering, of course, at the Hate!Love relationship between Thorin/Thranduil and the future Gimli/Legolas.

[sigridhr]

OK. MY GIMLI FEELS, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM.

I have so much love for the Legolas/Gimli Friendship. Let's look at Gimli for a second. His father was Glóin who was taken prisoner by Legolas' father, and there was MUCH BAD BLOOD over that. Then, Thranduil shows up and is all 'gimme your treasure, yo, also here's the dude who killed the dragon, he's my credentials, I'm legit, pay up' and Thorin is all FUCK THAT NOISE. Then he dies.

So, Gimli grows up with all of Glóin's war stories ('SIT DOWN, SON, AND LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE TIME ME AND 12 FRIENDS GOT A WIZARD TO HELP US KIDNAP A HOBBIT AND NEARLY FEED HIM TO A DRAGON'), and is very clearly all RAAAH ELVES in the same way that Glóin and Co were.

And then he meets Galadriel, and he asks her for a single strand of her hair. Fëanor, aka. 'The Greatest of the Noldor' made that exact same request of her, and she refused. But here's this dwarf, who kicked up a hell of a shit over being blindfolded when brought into Lothlórien, who asks her for it.

And she gives him THREE.

And then Gimli becomes Legolas' best friend 5ever. Seriously. They agree to go visit Fangorn (which Gimli hates) and the Glittering Caves (which Legolas hates) after the War of the Ring, because they're broadening each other's horizons. And after Aragorn dies, Legolas builds a boat and takes Gimli to the undying lands with him.

HE TAKES GIMLI TO THE UNDYING LANDS. Gimli is the only dwarf ever to set foot there.

So, AGEJAOGEHAOGEHAWOGEAW. It's such a perfect coming full circle, because this is a history seeped in blood and violence. You have Fëanor's kinslaying, the slaying of Elu-Thingol and the fucking fall of Doriath, the imprisonment of Thorin, the desolation of Smaug all hovering in the background, and Legolas and Gimli just go, fuck it, we're off to Valinor to live out our days in heterosexual bliss.

Legolas and Gimli's friendship is probably one of the most underrated things in fandom - at least as far as I've seen. And, as much as I did like the LotR films overall, I was really, really annoyed that Gimli was pretty much comic relief. HE CHARMED GALADRIEL INTO GIVING HIM SOMETHING SHE REFUSED FEANOR. He is SUAVE as a very SUAVE thing. And noble, and wonderful, and YOU SHOULD BE PROUD, GLOIN, BECAUSE YOU DID A REALLY GOOD JOB. CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR SON.

So, yeah.

As for Thorin/Thranduil. I think Thranduil is an asshole. (I mean, don't get me wrong, a pretty asshole if we're going by the films). And Thorin's asshole inclinations probably brought out the worst in Thranduil. He's probably grumpy that everyone else got a nice magicky ring, and all he got was spiders, Sauron in the woods and an neighbourly dragon. So, there is that.

[sigridhr]

To be fair to Frodo, the ring's influence increased as Sauron's did – Frodo was not only marching it straight into Mordor, but he owned it at a time when Sauron was much stronger.

I'd say Sam is pretty much as close to without guile as you can get, but he was severely tempted, just as Frodo was. I don't think anyone at all could have destroyed the Ring – that's why Gollum had to do it by accident.

[anki_koda]

I was thinking the same. The Ring's power awaken when he sense Sauron's power growing. Frodo was actually pretty good at keeping it for such a long time and then standing at the mouth of Mount Doom ready to throw it.

I believe, as you do, no one would be able to destroy. It was luck that Gollum arrived at the perfect moment.

[j_quadrifrons]

Oooh, I'm happy to pop in with lore! I've been doing a lot of reading on Dwarves lately (although I don't have access to Peoples of Middle Earth which is driving me crazy).

We don't have much of the history of the Dwarves because they actually awakened much farther west than the Elves were living at the time - their early history is completely separate from anyone else, and the only texts we have of Middle Earth are from Elves and Men (who weren't even around yet, obviously). (Er, I take the framing device pretty seriously. Sorry.)

But they did open up trade routes pretty much as soon as they realized there was someone to trade with: Moria was an economic hub, when there weren't wars going on, and their cities in Ered Luin were an important source of arms for the early Elven kingdoms. (In fact, the Dwarves armed the Elves in Middle Earth - and brought them news so they weren't completely surprised by the first Orc attacks. Without them, there's a good chance Thingol's kingdom would have been wiped out before he even established Doriath.)

And Dwarves built Thingol's palace of Menegrath, of course. They seem to have gotten along pretty well until the whole Nauglamir incident, actually, although the Silmarillion does say they got along better with the Noldor (Fëanor's people) because they were both craftsmen.

(On rereading "On the Sindar," I have come to the conclusion that it isn't that Dwarves wouldn't teach the Elves their language so much that the Elves didn't care to learn it because they thought it wasn't pretty enough, and the Dwarves have been a little offended by this ever since and so won't try again. It's not quite what the text actually says, but it's not far off, and the Sil is from a very Elvish perspective, after all.)

[sigridhr]

No, no, take the framing device seriously – Tolkien did, and we ought to. Things are pretty carefully written around what the Hobbits either experienced, or could reasonably learn second hand, and the 'surviving' Elvish sources (and crotchety old Elves themselves, presumably).

I think I read somewhere as well – although I can't find it again (dammit!) that the dwarf language is bizarrely complex, and even the Elves who were inclined to learn it, sort of got halfway through and went 'wtf, dude?' and gave up. I imagine it was rather a point of smugness amongst the dwarves that their language was too cool for Elvish school.

I'd forgotten, too, that they'd armed the Elves. That brings a really wonderful symmetry to all of it – you have the awakening of the Dwarves and Elves, and they start of in friendship, and the Dwarves save Elvish butt, then there's a horrible bloody bit in the middle, and Gimli is carried to the undying lands along with the last of the Elves as they leave Middle-Earth.

[j_quadrifrons]

Oh yes absolutely. There's a great weight of fate in Tolkien's world that I've always liked - there's definitely a way that things are *meant* to happen, in the way that, fr'ex, Gandalf always says that Frodo is *meant* to carry the Ring. It's a manifestation of wyrd, I realize as I am typing this, exactly the same way that Ragnarok is meant to happen in a particular way.

The difference is that Ragnarok actually does happen the way it's supposed to, and in Middle Earth, almost nothing does. Part of this is down to Tolkien's immense Catholicism and his belief in an imperfect world, but part of it is also his modernism - like all the realist writers of the early twentieth century, he is also a product of the Great War, and if you want to talk about things not going the way they're supposed to go, well.

So I do kind of feel that Dwarves and Elves should have been friends, but something went horribly wrong, and Gimli and Legolas are righting a great wrong in becoming friends.

[sigridhr]

Someday I'd like to sit down and have a proper think, do some actual research, and come up with some thoughts on the extent to which Tolkien's war experiences shaped LotR.

Probably a silly question, but is wyrd a general sort of 'everything is governed by fate and things happen for a reason', or a fate tied to a specific person? Could the song of Eru and the Ainur be a form of 'wyrd' for Arda?

There is almost a sense of the world going from Arda-Marred to Arda-Remade after the War of the Ring - you have Mirkwood becoming Eryn Lasgalen again, the restoration of the line of the King in Gondor, the scouring and rebuilding of the Shire, and the return of the Elves to where they ought to have been in the first place.

[j_quadrifrons]

In this particular go-round of the Tolkien obsession I've been thinking a lot about Tolkien's war experiences, and I don't really think there is a way to separate it out from everything else. He was a child who desired dragons with a profound desire, he was a young man who lost all but one of his close friends in what was arguably the most horrific and disastrous war in human history, and he was a scholar not only of language but of Northern European epic heroism. (Which, really, I am moved beyond words that he still loved those kinds of stories, even after the war. Our literary canon kind of says that the First World War destroyed the idea of heroism, but Tolkien refused to let it, and the way he did that is by saying, no, war can be awful and people in it can be glorious and both of those things can happen at the same time. And also by redefining heroism so that it includes things like mercy and pity and going on until you break and someone else picking you up and going on for you. Sorry, making myself cry now.)

I am far from an expert on traditional Northern European mythology, but I do incorporate a lot of it into my personal religious practice, and I am a nerd, so with that disclaimer: My understanding of wyrd is that it's almost like a script. These things ought to happen in this order, improvisation is acceptable but deviation is not. So while most instances of wyrd are tied to an individual, something like Ragnarok is more like the wyrd of all the gods and monsters involved at the same time. I think given Tolkien's Catholic (= monotheist) worldview the song of the Ainur could definitely be considered Arda's wyrd.

Yes, but don't forget that there's this overwhelming sense of "too little, too late" tied in with all that. Like, yes, you finally got there, but don't forget all the opportunities you missed along the way. The world at the end of the War of the Ring is a diminished world, better than it would have been had they lost the war, but not what it was supposed to be.

[sigridhr]

Which, really, I am moved beyond words that he still loved those kinds of stories, even after the war. Our literary canon kind of says that the First World War destroyed the idea of heroism, but Tolkien refused to let it, and the way he did that is by saying, no, war can be awful and people in it can be glorious and both of those things can happen at the same time. And also by redefining heroism so that it includes things like mercy and pity and going on until you break and someone else picking you up and going on for you.

THIS.

I love how Tolkien's true heroes aren't necessarily the sort to go out with a kleos-seeking bang. His focus, through the perspective of the Hobbits, was on ordinary, good people, who, when dropped into the most hellish situation imaginable, became capable of extraordinary things. And it's not, in the end, fighting and force of arms that saves the day, but Sam and Frodo dragging one another up the mountain – just a lone soldier and his batman (though not the caped crusader variety :P).

That makes sense to me.

Very true – because it will always be Arda-marred, after the fall of Melkor.

[j_quadrifrons]

Speaking of Dwarves arming Elves - I recently discovered that the Dwarf smith who was renowned for forging most of the weapons that Thingol asked for in the First Age was the same smith who forged Narsil. How's that for you: the Ring was cut from Sauron's hand with a Dwarvish blade. (Which was later reforged by Elves - one must take this as some kind of a sign of the two races coming to some kind of reconciliation, I think.)

/triviageek

[sigridhr]

Oh, bless your geeky heart.

I love that so much, given all the brouhaha over it being the last alliance of Men and Elves, and the victory blow was dealt by a Dwarvish blade, and the Ring finished off by a Hobbit.

EVERYBODY WINS.

[anki_koda]

Oh, can I get a reference to the Dwarf please? Also, that's a huge surprise for me.
Tolkien has a way to connect everything in a way you have to read carefully to discover this little bits.

[j_quadrifrons]

Aragorn mentions it when he's reciting his lineage at the Golden Hall - "In this sheath dwells the Blade that was Broken and has been made again. Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time."

Telchar is first mentioned in "On the Sindar," the chapter of the Silmarillion that deals with Thingol and the other Sindarin Elves - "Therefore Thingol took thought for arms, which before his people had not needed, and these at first the Naugrim smithied for him; for they were greatly skilled in such work, though none among them surpassed the craftsmen of Nogrod, of whom Telchar the smith was greatest in renown."

It's easy to miss that he's a Dwarf, since there's almost no Kudzul in the Silmarillion and everything is referred to by Elvish names: "Naugrim" means "stunted people," because Elves are spectacularly rude, and Nogrod is the Dwarvish city of Tumunzahar in Ered Luin. (Even Telchar's name is Elvish; as explained in the appendices, Dwarves do not share their Kudzul names with non-Dwarves and go by Elvish or Human names for general purposes.)

I learned this entirely by accident, as I was working on that chapter for my Silmarillion Rewrite and rereading Two Towers at the same time; it's little details like that that just blow me away about this universe.

[j_quadrifrons]

Yup. Everybody does their part, and Sauron doesn't know what hit him. :D