sigridhr | Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

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Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

*smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces.
There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources.
There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited.
If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com.

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on.

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Chapter I;

"It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife."

It's funny, because the Hobbit mentions a bunch of things – like faries - that are really interesting but don't seem to pop up anywhere else. Where do the fairies live? I mean, they must be at least Hobbit-ish size in order for one to be taken as a wife. Are they chilling with the Entwives?

I love how Bilbo, at 50, is the youngest (I think). They're all older than dirt. Thorin's 195. And Gandalf is so old he remembers riding Woolly Mammoths. He and Galadriel swap stories about the time they chased down a Saber-Toothed Tiger.

"Bilbo rushed along the passage, very angry, and altogether bewildered and bewuthered—this was the most awkward Wednesday he ever remembered."

I love this quote so much! There's something so succinctly hilarious about it – especially with the use of words like bewildered and bewuthered.

I have to say, I like Thorin's entrance in the film better than him getting squashed under Bombur on the mat. (Instead he gets squashed under Bombur in a sack by the trolls).

Speaking of things that were good in the film – that song. Oh, dear, god. That was perfect. Perfect.

"As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves."

This is interesting, especially given how everything plays out in the end. This is Tolkien's sort of temptation of the craftsman – Fëanor falls into this trap too, with his love of the Silmarils. It's not greed flat out, though – it's a love for things they've wrought. It's similar to Galadriel's works in Lothlórien with Nenya – makes you wonder what the dwarf rings could've been if Sauron hadn't got his hands on them.

Except, I remember reading once that Tolkien based the dwarves on the Jews (I think it was in the letters, but I don't have my copy here so I can't confirm – does anyone else know for sure?) – which was part of why they'd lost their homeland – so this sort of avarice is a bit awkward given Jewish stereotypes.

Pompous-prolix!Thorin makes me happy.
Why don't Fili and Kili know their quest? They're his nephews. Headcanon: he didn't tell them anything so that Dís wouldn't find out why he was taking them with him. "Oh, don't mind us. We're just going for a walk. To Erebor. See you in a bit!"

Gandalf is like a used car salesman trying to pawn off Bilbo as a successful burglar.

"He looks more like a grocer than a burglar" / "I think I am right in believing that you think I am no good. I will show you. I have no signs on my door – it was painted a week ago –, and I am quite sure you have come to the wrong house. As soon as I saw your funny faces on the door-step, I had my doubts. But treat it as the right one. Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to talk from hear to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert."

I wish they'd kept this bit in the film. Poor Bilbo has a load of Dwarves turn up uninvited (by him), who proceed to eat him out of house and home, sing him a song by way of explanation and then insult him – I love that he refuses to take it. BILBO IS NOT PUTTING UP WITH YOUR SHIT, THORIN.

And he's so unbelievably brave here. They've been going on about Dragons, and he says 'you've got the wrong man, but I'll step up to the plate to help you anyway, so ha.' I FUCKING LOVE BILBO.

Also, great were-worms??? What the hell are these? Are they from Harad? WHY DID THEY NOT RIDE WERE-WORMS INTO BATTLE ON THE PELENNOR? (I am having epic Dune/Tolkien crossovers in my head right now).

I love how they need Bilbo because 13 is an unlucky number. Hahaha. Triskaidekaphobes, the lot of them.

The bit about apprenticing men to the dwarves is interesting - especially since the dwarves are cast as pretty insular (admittedly, it's from the film, and I can't remember if it's in the books as well, but the line from Elrond about how the Dwarves care nothing for the struggles of others comes to mind). Also notable that they don't bother to grow any food for themselves, apparently – and get by just on trading. The Hollin gate at Moria also suggests that dwarves used to be great neighbours, actually. And, for a people who refuse to teach their language to outsiders, are very friendly.

And I love how Thorin talks about making toys, of all things. I find that really sweet. There aren't many dwarf babies, are there? Since there aren't many dwarf women... So, they must sell most of their toys to the humans.

Chapter II;
Gandalf says "Great Elephants!" Great. Elephants.

Possibly stupid question, but:

"These parts are none too well known, and are too near the mountains. Travellers seldom come this way now. The old maps are no use: things have changed for the worse and the road is unguarded. They have seldom even heard of the king round here, and the less inquisitive you are as you go along, the less trouble you are likely to find."

- we're in Arnor, yes? So, are they talking about the line of Elendil? If so, almost no one was aware that the heir to the throne was pottering about the countryside without any soap and refusing to bathe, but apparently the dwarves were?

(On the trolls:) "not to mention their language, which was not drawing-room fashion at all." Oh, Tolkien, you classy snob.

"[Thorin] came expecting mischief, and didn’t need to see his friends’ legs sticking out of sacks to tell him that things were not all well." That is the most hilarious mental image.

As much as I enjoyed the version of this scene in the film, I love Gandalf's making them argue. It's hilarious.

So, Fili and Kili carry out the pots of coins from the troll hoard – what the hell do they do with them? If they keep them, they must lose them in the Misty Mountains. Or maybe they use them to pay for Elrond's Luxury B&B.

...

As for more general thoughts – the purpose of the mission is interesting, I think. It's personal, and clearly vengeance is a hot button for Thorin since the mention of Thráin's death has him immediately sticking Sauron on a shit list and preparing to march right up to Dol Goldur, Necromancer or no Necromancer, and give him a what-for.

From the perspective of Tolkien as an Anglo-Saxon scholar it's interesting, of course, given vengeance was a driving force for a lot of their heroic deeds. Beowulf is probably the biggest example of this – Beowulf kills Grendel as vengeance for his attacks on Hrothgar's halls, Grendel's mother retaliates, Beowulf retaliates back, and so on. I think there's parallels between Beowulf's death at the hands of the dragon and Thorin's, too, to be found.

It's interesting – you have Thorin acting out of vengeance, Aragorn who acts, arguably, out of duty (there's Elrond's condition that he become King, which is probably a deliberate echo of Elu-Thingol's conditions on Beren), and people like Éowyn, who become heroes out of a desire for glory. Aragorn is clearly an ideal, which makes Eowyn's type and Thorin's type more interesting. Eowyn is a funny one, because – I love her to pieces, but – she was charged with the defence of Meduseld, and she abandoned it. I think it's Aragorn who says something along the lines of 'a time will come for valour without renown', but that's really, really not Eowyn's style. She's, I think, a very traditional Anglo-Saxon hero as well, in regards to her desire for remembrance and glory in battle, but she achieves it at the cost of her responsibilities – it all works out ok in the end for her, but it could've gone very differently.

Thorin's a bit similar, in the sense that he, and the remnants of the people of Erebor, had just built up a reasonably good living for themselves, and he heads off to go tickle the dragon. And he'd've gone to Dol Goldur too, probably, if Gandalf hadn't told him not to. It's vengeance, yes, but it's done at the cost of people he's responsible to – and costs him his direct bloodline.

Then you have the Hobbits, who'd rather not be heroes at all, but there's something that needs doing so we'd best just get on with it as best we can. And they're the true heroes of Tolkien's works – which I find really, really charming.

Edited (Fixed typo. Probably missed several more. ) 2013-01-11 06:50 (UTC)

That was a marvelous introduction. I'm reading the Hobbit for the first time in English ad I have to say it is quite difficult to grasp some of the concepts and the words I'm not very familiar with. And yet, Tolkien has a way to put it simple and giving us enough for a pretty clear image of his world to form in our minds. Just take this line for intance:

In a hole in the ground there live a Hobbit.

You may not know what a Hobbit is but you certanly know what a hole in the ground is. It makes you curious to know wwhat kind of creature lives there that it isn't an animal, of course.

Edited 2013-01-11 21:02 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd imagine Tolkien's probably hard goings – he's not got the easiest style around. But it's beautiful prose. :)

Haha, you read my mind! I was considering quoting that sentence – you're right: it's such a lovely starting point. It's just the right mix of charming, curious and a humble, quiet beginning to a big adventure.

What I found interesting on my first reading was the way Gandalf arrives and merely decides Bilbo has to go on an adventure. Did he came up with it just because he knew Hobbits? Or, is there anything else? Why Bilbo Baggins, indeed. Galadriel is justified in her curiosity for Bilbo is not that special if we were to speak about heroes or warriors, etc.

This is actually covered, sort of, in The Unfinished Tales - Tolkien wrote up a piece called "The Quest of Erebor", which is basically a conversation between Gandalf and Frodo about Thorin and Bilbo and the whole dragon business. :P

He has this to say on the matter:

Somehow I had been attracted by Bilbo long before, as a child, and a young hobbit: he had not quite come of age when I had last seen him. He had stayed in my mind ever since, with his eagerness and his bright eyes, and his love of tales, and his questions about the wide world outside the Shire. As soon as I entered the Shire I heard news of him. He was getting talked about, it seemed. Both his parents had died early for Shire-folk, at about eighty; and he had never married. He was already growing a bit queer, they said, and went off for days by himself. He could be seen talking to strangers, even Dwarves.

"Even Dwarves!' Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart (I guessed) for a sight of the wide world. I laughed at myself; but I went off at once to have a look at Bilbo, to see what twenty years bad done to him, and whether he was as promising as gossip seemed to make out. But be was not at home.

[...]

"So I rode off back to Thorin in haste, to tackle the difficult task of persuading him to put aside his lofty designs and go secretly – and take Bilbo with him. Without seeing Bilbo first. It was a mistake, and nearly proved disastrous. For Bilbo had changed, of course. At least, he was getting rather greedy and fat, and his old desires had dwindled down to a sort of private dream. Nothing could have been more dismaying than to find it actually in danger of coming true! He was altogether bewildered, and made a complete fool of himself. Thorin would have left in a rage, but for another strange chance, which I will mention in a moment."

He's referring here to giving Thorin the key to the Lonely Mountain.

So, I guess, he just took a fancy to him. He gives justification for choosing a Hobbit (a burglar over a warrior because stealth is their only hope of success, and that a Hobbit would be an unknown to Smaug, and therefore might be in their favour. Gandalf also seems to pay a lot of attention to Hobbit lineage and history – he knows his Tooks and Bagginses from his block-headed Bracegirdles from Hardbottle, so to speak, so I think he knew that Bilbo's Tookishness would do him well. Bilbo himself was unusual in his adventurousness and his associations – he'd spoken to Dwarves before (remember, he knew the correct polite response to 'at your service'), and would therefore be much better suited and more receptive to travelling with a bunch of grumpy old Dwarves than your average Hobbit.

But you're right – Bilbo doesn't seem very remarkable – which just makes him all the more remarkable! One of my favourite bits from the Council of Elrond sequence, which I was sad they cut out of the films, was when Bilbo stands up and says he'll take the ring to Mordor because "he started this business, so he might as well finish it". It's the same, pig-headed bravery you get in the Hobbit – he, of course, didn't start it any more than he signed up to be a burglar, but, by golly, he's going to do it!

I love Bilbo so, so much.

Thank you for that!! I really need to get my hands on The Unfinished Tales. This certanly shows what a sneaky Wizard Gandalf is.

As you said, Bilbo is actually quite remarkable. I also love that part of the Council of Elrond because Boromir was about to laugh at this Halfling for even suggesting that until he realized half the room is looking at Bilbo with admiration, respect and foundness. I always thought Elrond, Gandalf, even Aragorn (and I hope Glorfindel and Erestor) were trying to protect Bilbo for further damage from the Ring. Which, actually, is one of the reasons they didn't allow him to go on que quest.

But, there is something about Bilbo that always makes you think twice about him which I believe was the first thing that attracted Thorin to him. In a no romantic way, of course. ;)

All of the supplementary stuff is great for the super-nerdy. :)

Gandalf is such a sneaky wizard! He pretty much just goes around stirring shit up and smoking weed. And, you know, helping Bilbo use the One Ring of Sauron to do magic tricks at his birthday party. Which is hilariously badass.

YES! I love that bit so much! It's so telling that Bilbo has the respect of all these great elf lords (and Aragorn). And then they let him sail west with them.

Hahaha. You should read the The Quest of Erebor, because I think you'd enjoy it a lot. Thorin is a complete asshole about Bilbo at first – waaay more than in the books.

What do you mean non-romantic? XD

What do you mean non-romantic? XD Of course! It's purely platonic (yeah right...speaking of The Nile)

Oh, I bet he was a complete asshole, even if the Hobbit doesn't mention that much you can feel it. If one read the Silmarillion one can understand a little about Dwarves, of course I bet the complementary readings give you even more insight on how they behave and how deep can be their resentment towards Smaug and Elves.

But, I bet Bilbo didn't let Thorin get his way that easily, did he?

They were absolutely not in love. Nope. No sir. :P

Haha, yeah. Thorin does rather exude pompous asshat at times. I can't actually remember reading much about Dwarves in The History of Middle Earth. I'd have to re-read – maybe someone will come along who's better read than I am to fill in the gaps, though.

But definitely a lot of the resentment stems from Doriath and the - err - incident with the Nauglamir, I think.

Bilbo was totally running the show. After they crossed the Misty Mountains it was the do-as-Bilbo-says show, with Thorin as his official sock puppet.

Bilbo enjoyed that one , I bet. I can almost imagine his eye roll every time the Dwarves came up with something really rude or , not completely idiotic, but not appropiate for the situation.

Thorin...mmm, where to start. He is rather complicated, I think. Once you start catching up with Bilbo you can almost guess what his Baggins or Took-ish part would do/say. But Thorin is a little harder to read. He is arrogant, proud and a complete asshole but, then again, he has his reasons and the people closest to him could tell he isn't that bad. Fili and Kili come to my mind when I think of a softer Thorin and then, of course, Bilbo who he grows to love...I mean, respect...respect...:)

I love his little temper tantrum when he's trying to smuggle the Dwarves out of Mirkwood. He's so put-upon and they're all so grumpy. It's hilarious.

Thorin is complicated. I like that about him. I think you can read him as both hero and anti-hero – his actions make sense, but are also selfish. He's proud and arrogant, but you could also read Bilbo's insistence that he can, in fact, be of use against a dragon, please don't be insulting me in my house, I thank you, as arrogance and pride as well. As soon as they say he's not any good, he stands up and insists he'll go along with it anyway to prove them wrong. Almost any failing can be a virtue in another situation.

It's a bit like the Eowyn/Thorin parallel I drew above – Eowyn and Bilbo were successful, Thorin not so much. But I think all their hearts were in the right place. Eowyn is covetous of glory in the same way Thorin is covetous of Erebor's gold. And Bilbo, I suppose, of his pride.

But he certainly does come to love Bilbo (Platonically! XD). That's why he flips his shit over the Arkenstone, I think, because his ~~boyfriend~~ new best-friend stole it from him (tricksy Baggins that he is).

Well, first of all, Good Morning Everyone!

And, to continue our discusion, Thorin was so in denial it was so funny...then, the end made it all hurt.

The first time I read the Hobbit I didn't understand why Biblo had betrayed his friends in such a way. I was as angry as Thorin and Co. because I had may faith put on Bilbo that he would help them, even if that means fight Elves and Men. And then, he goes and does that...

The second time I realized just how much I started understanding the Dwarves and how sympathetic I feel for them the first time around. Of course, the second time I got why Bilbo was doing it. He was sacrifying that friendship he had forged during the journey for their well-being.

Recently, I heard the parallel between the Arkenstone and the silmaril. But, there is something that bothers me about this. The Arkestone was supposed to be a jewel they found on the mountain while the silmaril was Fëanor's most valuable construction. So, they are comparing the love that creates on their owners and how this 'love' can turn into greedy and stubborness?

I so apologize for the spelling and grammar! i'm still half sleep and I keep getting the spelling in Spanish rather than in English :)

Edited 2013-01-12 12:51 (UTC)

I got a really thoughtful comment from Dreamflower02 on one of my fics about Bilbo and the Arkenstone, and I hope they won't mind me quoting it here:

I find that his most important characteristic is his deep generosity, compassion and mercy. You find that through his whole story--he helps the Dwarves, even though they are not very nice to him; he spares Gollum, who was ready to murder him; he gives away the Arkenstone to help buy peace; he gives away most of the treasure he earned on his adventure; he brings in an orphaned relative to raise when he is 99! As you point out, he voluntarily (although with help) GIVES AWAY the Ring that is supposed to be so powerful! and he even gives up the last of his treasure to Sam!

He's willing to repeatedly put his own well-being at risk for the sake of others.

I think a better comparison can be made with others who coveted the Silmaril, rather than Fëanor – like Elu Thingol, and the Dwarves who made the Nauglamír. Then we have greed and stubborness over something that was not their own work.

I'm curious as to how much of Thingol's request of Beren that he get a Silmaril from Morgoth was meant to be just a task so utterly impossible he'd be doomed to failure, and how much was Thingol actually wanting a Silmaril.

Hahaha, you manage better than I do when I'm wide awake and in my native language. :P

You know? This makes me think about something my aunt told me recently. She just started reading The Hobbit and she told me Bilbo is more innocent than Frodo that it was one of the reasons why the Ring nver affected Bilbo the way it did Frodo. Of course, she hasn't read the LOTR but I guess she is partialy right. Although, I wouldn't call it innocence as much as that compassion in Bilbo, that something that makes him so remarkable. Frodo, of course is equally remarkable but as Tolkien stated he is suffering something Bilbo never got the chance to.

Speaking of Elves and Dwarves, I just have to ask because is something that recently blossom in the Tolkien fandom.

What do you think about the pairings? Canon/non-canon

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