Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Eight

[sigridhr]

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Seven (The Hobbit)
Chapter XVI: The Gathering of Clouds
Chapter XIV: A Thief in the Night

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by forcing you to mediate at Christmas dinner in the house of Finwë. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.  
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 1st March 2013 to Friday 8th March 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

Comments

[sigridhr]

It's not really an excuse, but I do think that Roac's speech to Thorin sort of tips the scales in regards to how Thorin responds. I'd forgotten how grim it is - he describes it as a host of elves with carrion birds circling over head spoiling for a fight. And he sets the stage for Thorin's dealings with Bard by saying the Laketown men blame them for everything - and the "[they] think to find amends from your treasure, whether you are alive or dead" seems fairly threatening given there's just fourteen of them and they're facing a literal army (which Roac ever-so-helpfully points out). I think this strongly tempers the advice that he deal with Bard.

Practical!Bilbo is always my favourite, though, bless him.

I'm always a bit divided here, because, on the one hand, Thorin's pretty much a raging douchenozzle. But, I sort of understand his statement that he will give out the treasure, just not under duress. Given the fact that they're incredibly outnumbered, and, while some of the hoard was from Dale, the bulk of it really was Thror's, I understand him wanting to keep some measure of control over how it's distributed, and as soon as he opens the front door he loses any footing he had. On the other hand, greed is clearly at play in a big way, but it's a pretty understandable greed imho.

Course Bard is being super dooper reasonable here so it highlights all of Thorin's douchenozzle attributes.

Bilbo's I-am-completely-and-utterly-fed-up-with-all-these-dwarven-idiots speech is my absolute favourite. He's just so sassy and clearly thinks everyone's a nitwit and why did he ever leave the Shire? It just cracks me up.

His reaction on handing over the Arkenstone is interesting too - especially given Gallifaerie's point about parallels between the ring and the stone.

GANDALF! :D:D

Can I also just express me profound appreciation for the fact that the book does not end with the death of Smaug? Because I, when I first read it, like Bilbo, expected it to be over - but the fact that Tolkien deals with the aftermath is really wonderful to me.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought about the role that Roac plays in setting Thorin's mindset in response to Bard, but you're right, he really exacerbates the situation. I do think that the men and elves should not have turned up with armies though, because it's really uncalled for. Especially when they essentially turn up saying 'oh we thought you were dead, so happy to see you're still alive but lols we did bring an army to get your gold though.' I mean, who would respond well to that? I do feel torn, because both sides acted kind of badly, but I suppose Thorin outdid their asshattery.

I feel like parallels can be drawn between all of the gold and the ring as well - it seems like the ring is more of an extreme metaphor for money (or possessions), if you take a BIG theme of both The Hobbit and LotR to be greed. Because a lot of the problems the gold causes are similar to those that the ring causes, just to less of an extent.

[sigridhr]

Thorin does sort of take the cake. :P

I have pretty much no brain at all right now, so this will probably not make a lot of sense, but... There's something about the Ring's stripping of others' autonomy that always seemed a bit like a warning about being swallowed up by one's own technology to me. I mean, Sauron has to literally pour his own lifeforce into it to get it to work, and to bend others to his will with it, but it causes his downfall.

I guess, unlike a lot of the stuff in the hoard here (the arkenstone in particular) there isn't a practical use in the same way the Ring has. The Ring literally saves Bilbo's life, and they wouldn't've got through the quest without it. And, in less dire circumstances, he uses it to avoid neighbours. Gollum as well uses the Ring to keep himself hidden from the Goblins, who might've otherwise flushed him out.

The lure of the Ring to Gandalf and Galadriel also is that they might use it from a desire to do good - and then, in a sense, be impaled upon their own sword in the same way Sauron eventually was.

I guess what I'm getting at is it's greed, yes, but I think there's more to the Ring that doesn't hold as well in a parallel to Smaug's hoard.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're right that the lure of the Ring is more complicated than the lure of the treasure hoard. The Ring is just a more sophisticated item altogether, really. I suppose the treasure has no practical use at all (unless you're using it like money, to trade for things, but the problem is that the dwarves are unlikely to part with it), which makes being drawn to it very scary (it's sort of like a more pure greed? I don't know, that doesn't really make sense, but I'm quite tired and this is all the Tolkien logic I can come up with at the moment, heh)