Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Eight

[sigridhr]

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Seven (The Hobbit)
Chapter XVI: The Gathering of Clouds
Chapter XIV: A Thief in the Night

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by forcing you to mediate at Christmas dinner in the house of Finwë. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.  
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 1st March 2013 to Friday 8th March 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

Comments

[sigridhr]

It's not really an excuse, but I do think that Roac's speech to Thorin sort of tips the scales in regards to how Thorin responds. I'd forgotten how grim it is - he describes it as a host of elves with carrion birds circling over head spoiling for a fight. And he sets the stage for Thorin's dealings with Bard by saying the Laketown men blame them for everything - and the "[they] think to find amends from your treasure, whether you are alive or dead" seems fairly threatening given there's just fourteen of them and they're facing a literal army (which Roac ever-so-helpfully points out). I think this strongly tempers the advice that he deal with Bard.

Practical!Bilbo is always my favourite, though, bless him.

I'm always a bit divided here, because, on the one hand, Thorin's pretty much a raging douchenozzle. But, I sort of understand his statement that he will give out the treasure, just not under duress. Given the fact that they're incredibly outnumbered, and, while some of the hoard was from Dale, the bulk of it really was Thror's, I understand him wanting to keep some measure of control over how it's distributed, and as soon as he opens the front door he loses any footing he had. On the other hand, greed is clearly at play in a big way, but it's a pretty understandable greed imho.

Course Bard is being super dooper reasonable here so it highlights all of Thorin's douchenozzle attributes.

Bilbo's I-am-completely-and-utterly-fed-up-with-all-these-dwarven-idiots speech is my absolute favourite. He's just so sassy and clearly thinks everyone's a nitwit and why did he ever leave the Shire? It just cracks me up.

His reaction on handing over the Arkenstone is interesting too - especially given Gallifaerie's point about parallels between the ring and the stone.

GANDALF! :D:D

Can I also just express me profound appreciation for the fact that the book does not end with the death of Smaug? Because I, when I first read it, like Bilbo, expected it to be over - but the fact that Tolkien deals with the aftermath is really wonderful to me.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought about the role that Roac plays in setting Thorin's mindset in response to Bard, but you're right, he really exacerbates the situation. I do think that the men and elves should not have turned up with armies though, because it's really uncalled for. Especially when they essentially turn up saying 'oh we thought you were dead, so happy to see you're still alive but lols we did bring an army to get your gold though.' I mean, who would respond well to that? I do feel torn, because both sides acted kind of badly, but I suppose Thorin outdid their asshattery.

I feel like parallels can be drawn between all of the gold and the ring as well - it seems like the ring is more of an extreme metaphor for money (or possessions), if you take a BIG theme of both The Hobbit and LotR to be greed. Because a lot of the problems the gold causes are similar to those that the ring causes, just to less of an extent.

[sigridhr]

Thorin does sort of take the cake. :P

I have pretty much no brain at all right now, so this will probably not make a lot of sense, but... There's something about the Ring's stripping of others' autonomy that always seemed a bit like a warning about being swallowed up by one's own technology to me. I mean, Sauron has to literally pour his own lifeforce into it to get it to work, and to bend others to his will with it, but it causes his downfall.

I guess, unlike a lot of the stuff in the hoard here (the arkenstone in particular) there isn't a practical use in the same way the Ring has. The Ring literally saves Bilbo's life, and they wouldn't've got through the quest without it. And, in less dire circumstances, he uses it to avoid neighbours. Gollum as well uses the Ring to keep himself hidden from the Goblins, who might've otherwise flushed him out.

The lure of the Ring to Gandalf and Galadriel also is that they might use it from a desire to do good - and then, in a sense, be impaled upon their own sword in the same way Sauron eventually was.

I guess what I'm getting at is it's greed, yes, but I think there's more to the Ring that doesn't hold as well in a parallel to Smaug's hoard.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're right that the lure of the Ring is more complicated than the lure of the treasure hoard. The Ring is just a more sophisticated item altogether, really. I suppose the treasure has no practical use at all (unless you're using it like money, to trade for things, but the problem is that the dwarves are unlikely to part with it), which makes being drawn to it very scary (it's sort of like a more pure greed? I don't know, that doesn't really make sense, but I'm quite tired and this is all the Tolkien logic I can come up with at the moment, heh)

[starliings.livejournal.com]

'Can I also just express me profound appreciation for the fact that the book does not end with the death of Smaug? Because I, when I first read it, like Bilbo, expected it to be over - but the fact that Tolkien deals with the aftermath is really wonderful to me.'

I completely agree with this. It takes what could just be a adventure story where everything ends nicely and they beat the dragon, yay The End, but it's so awesome that Tolkien actually deals with the ~real life~ aspect of the ending, like, insert inspirational quote here about the dragon not being the real villain but rather HUMAN NATURE. Or dwarvish nature I guess. Whatevs.

'There was the sound, too of elven-harps and of sweet music; and as it echoed up towards them it seemed that the chill of the air was warmed, and they caught faintly the fragrance of woodland flowers blossoming in spring.'

I love the imagery here, it's like, even though Smaug is defeated, there's still this festering darkness in the mountain, mainly due to greed and pride and revenge. It kinda reminds me of Dementors, how they make all the flowers and plants curl up and die when they go by.

Also it mentions that most of the dwarves seemed to share Thorin's mind, except for Fili and Kili (and Bombur). Ugh this is depressing, because I can't help thinking that if Fili and Kili had survived the battle, they might have carried the line of Durin into a new age of friendship with men and elves and I JUST. WHY MUST EVERYONE I LOVE DIE.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I can't help thinking that if Fili and Kili had survived the battle, they might have carried the line of Durin into a new age of friendship with men and elves

Oh my god, that makes it so much more painful! I feel like I need to insert one of those 'why would you post something like that?' gifs here. Thorin doesn’t even seem to want a friendly peace with the elves or the men, he just seems to HATE EVERYTHING. The only allies he seems to be comfortable with are other dwarves, Beorn and some ravens. But Fili and Kili would have changed that and everything could have been so lovely and friendly and. THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.

[sigridhr]

Ow. Ow. Ow. Thanks for that last paragraph. I didn't need my heart. It's fine. :P

Doesn't it say too that the stench of Smaug lingered in the mountain? As the Dwarves are falling victim to the same hubris and greed that defeated Smaug... :P

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Like sigridhr and starliings said, it makes so much a better book that the big climax of DRAGON isn’t actually the climax of the book at all.
Roac basically sums it up when he says "the treasure is likely to be your death, though the dragon is no more."

Because the aim of the quest, reclaiming the gold, is the dangerous part, not the quest itself, so the dragon isn’t really their biggest challenge. Perhaps that’s why the logistics of them killing Smaug was never really deliberated over much, because it’s not as important a problem for them to face as is their pride, greed and need for revenge. Because those things just end up consuming them, Thorin especially, until he’s completely unwilling to see any fault on his own part, or just show basic charity and kindness to people who are suffering. Dwarvish priorities are all wrong. (Although I do agree with what sigridhr said about him being willing to share some of the treasure to help the men of Laketown when they’re not threatening him.)

Something that does redeem Thorin for me a bit is this:

'Yet he had an eye for many another wonderful thing that was lying there, about which were wound old memories of the labours and the sorrows of his race.'

Sometimes I forget that it’s not just about the gold for Thorin – there is a definitely a huge emotional aspect to him wanting to keep all of the treasure, and that just compounds his greed I suppose.

'He would have given most of his share in the profits for the peaceful winding up of these affairs.'

Once again, Bilbo is exactly what they need - if only Thorin and the dwarves had shared this perspective, even slightly, they might all have lived happily ever after.

'Then Thorin seized a bow of horn and shot an arrow at the speaker. It smote into his shield, and stood there, quivering.'

However much of an unreasonable jerk he was being, that is BADASS. Man, I hope they keep that in the movie.

[sigridhr]

Seconding. If there is no epic Thorin bitching-cum-arrow-shooting I will be sorely disappointed. :P

[hibari-sensei.livejournal.com]

I third it ^^ That's a helluva way to throw a hissy fit.

The line about old memories and sorrows of his race made me think that dwelling on the past is just as destructive as greed (which it often accompanies). Thorin can't get over the past, and it costs him. The Ring was what caused Smeagol to murder his cousin, and now he's obsessed with it. You see this in LOTR too with Denethor sinking into despair and insanity after his wife's and later Boromir's death. Then you have wonderful Bilbo who knew when it was time to move from his long life in the Shire and was able to hand over the One Ring.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Wow, I really love this interpretation! Bilbo never seems to dwell on anything about the past or family, and he seems to be much stronger for it - I suppose he doesn't have any of those demons following him around or driving him to do things.