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Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Five
Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Five (The Hobbit)
Chapter IX: Barrels out of Bond
Chapter X: A Warm Welcome
Rules
I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:
Chapter IX: Barrels out of Bond
Chapter X: A Warm Welcome
Rules
I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:
- Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by forcing you to read Evil!Thranduil Badfic for the rest of eternity.
- There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources.
- There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.
- If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com.
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I really like this simile - it's really quite domestic and mundane after the excitement and glamour attached to the role of burglar when they first set out on their quest. I really feel for Bilbo stuck wandering about invisibly in Thranduil's tunnels for days on end, not knowing what to do. There is the obvious comparison between Bilbo being the last one out of the goblins' caves, and this situation, where Bilbo saves them all. If that doesn't indicate character progression, I don't know what else does.
Also, I love that Bilbo complains and moans about his predicament, but he still gets stuff done! It's usually a poor character trait for the hero to whinge about things, but Bilbo just does it anyway - and, boy, can I relate to that, because I spend a considerable amount of time griping over things that tick me off.
(When I got to the scene where Bilbo finds where Thorin's been imprisoned, I couldn't help but be reminded of
The wine of Dorwinion that the butler and chief guard drink brings "deep and pleasant dreams" – once again, there may be some significance of Bilbo being awake when the others aren’t, as he takes advantage of their drunken stupor to execute his plan.
I will never get tired of sassy-and-sarcastic!Bilbo.
I can't help but see this as a proverb. I feel like quoting it solemnly at anyone who asks me for advice.
Being a relative Tolkien newbie, chapter 10 made me wonder as to the nature of the relationship between the men and the dwarves? Is it usually amicable like this, or have they been enemies in the past too?
Also, I am not impressed with the Master of Lake-town - he seems pretty ineffective and defunct, especially compared to Thranduil.
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And seconded on the love of Bilbo's complaining! That's a favorite character type of mine - will get shit done, but refuses to be all stoic and manly about it. This sucks, and Bilbo will let you know about it. <3
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will get shit done, but refuses to be all stoic and manly about it
Exactly! It's so refreshing, and realistic. If I have to do something that I don't want to do you'll bet I'll complain long and loudly about it before I finally get it done. Bilbo is such a great and relatable protagonist - you can't help but love him.
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yES. I sort of feel like I need to formally apologise to Thorin for this but at the same time I'm not sorry at all.
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Oh GOD. *crawls into a corner* I have done horrible things and they are horrible.
I second your adoration for the fact that Bilbo is a (justified) whinger. And a snarky bastard.
I wonder if there's also a parallel of sorts between the wine and the enchanted river - at least as far as deep sleep and pleasant dreams go. Bombur (and Bilbo when he was put into an enchanted sleep in the elven glade) dreamed of food - which was probably wish fulfilment, given how hungry they were, but could also be considered pleasant.
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I like that parallel between the wine and the river. I was always surprised by how pleasant the dreams the river water causes are, just because it's Mirkwood and it's scary and I expect some sort of spooky undertone. I suppose it is sinister in the end, because you just want to stay dreaming, and then you'd die of starvation in the forest.
I think the river water makes Bombur forget a lot of what's happened as well? That reminds me of the ale of forgetfulness in the Saga of the Volsungs. It's a pretty tenuous link, but my brain can't not make these Norse connections.
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The Master (my mind kept jumping to Doctor Who, LOL) comes across as how some of my religious friends see atheists: hardline skeptics who are just overly practical and wordly. Given Tolkein's devoutness, I wonder if this was his jab at non-believers.
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(Haha, yes, it's impossible for me to hear 'the Master' without thinking of Doctor Who.)
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Olsen points out that the - he calls it a misunderstanding, I'd call it an interpersonal clusterfuck - that leads to all the Dwarves being imprisoned prefigures the disaster at the Mountain, when Bard and Thranduil come to sue for part of the hoard. They are both fundamentally misunderstandings, but they're based in a certain natural (and not unwarranted) suspicion that has a tendency to make things worse rather than better.
Olsen also calls Bilbo a "subsistence burglar," which I find unbelievably endearing. <3
Laketown is apparently based on archaeological evidence which, at the time Tolkien was writing, was taken to indicate that ancient German and Norse towns were sometimes built on lakes. Now we tend to assume they were built on shores. But I do have to point out crannogs, which are Irish dwellings that were built, not on top of lakes, but in them - man-made islands, kind of, just big enough for a household. (Not directly relevant, but crannogs are fucking awesome, so.)
Bilbo's increasing bitchiness is a source of constant joy to me.
A point which is not directly brought up in the book but which is striking on reflection: Smaug's attack is within the personal experience of some of these Dwarves, while many of the Men of Lake-town don't actually believe Smaug exists, he comes out so infrequently.
I've got a lot of notes about the role of luck in the story which I'd be willing type up if anybody wants to talk about it, but nothing particularly interesting to say at the moment.
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in one crannog they found the best collection ever of royal jewelry (and some dice and some wine bottles and some deer bones, sounds like a great night)
basically the ancient Irish were all "fuck this bog, imma build my house here anyway" and then they DID
I have a lot of feelings about Irish archaeology apparently
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Bogs are wicked cool.
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(Did you know they recently discovered that what they thought was two bog burials in Scotland turned out to be six people? OH MY GOD the ritual and religious implications of that are SO COOL I MIGHT EXPLODE)
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AND NO I HAD NOT SEEN THAT. OH MY GOD.THAT IS SO CREEPILY COOL. Could you imagine being in the lab when those DNA results came in?
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Ooh, your notes on luck sound interesting! It is a pretty important theme of the book.
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Comments on luck below, as multiple people have asked.
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Plus there's the line about how they couldn't have made it through Mirkwood anyway, so, getting captured was, in and of itself, an act of luck. And, of course, the finding of the Ring.
Also regarding the interpersonal clusterfuck - which is a phrase I will now be using as often as I can possibly get away with it - I hadn't picked up on that. It's interesting, because I feel it almost contrasts directly in a way with Lothlorien in LotR. It's treated with suspicion by most of its neighbours, and by Boromir, if I remember correctly. The company is bound and blindfolded, which echoes the blindfolding of the dwarves here (especially given the brouhaha over Gimli being blindfolded, who probably remembered what happened to his father when the elves tried to pull that one) - but Galadriel tells them to remove it, which dissolves the imminent clusterfuck and leads to a reconciliation between Dwarves and Elves, of a sort.
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Good point on the Lothlorien/Galadriel parallel - and if you want to throw in Silmarillion history here (which, why not), Galadriel has just as much reason as Thranduil to be paranoid, if not of the Fellowship in particular. But she, unlike Thranduil, sees the big picture, that if the Fellowship are not helped then the whole of Middle-Earth is in danger, Lothlorien included. (One can see where Thranduil might not take this point very seriously, given that his kingdom has been under threat from Dol Guldur for quite some time, but.)
(Also, to be fair, if Thorin had told him "We're going to kill the dragon and retake Erebor," Thranduil would probably have laughed in his face, and rightly so. They aren't the most...competent company.)
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I'd be grumpy too.
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'Thorin looked and walked as if his kingdom was already regained and Smaug chopped up into little pieces'. BATTLE OF THE FIVE ARMIES FEELS.
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Thorin looked and walked as if his kingdom was already regained and Smaug chopped up into little pieces
And it's terrible because that all sort of happens and it's all going so well but there's still no happy ending for Thorin. Poor baby reclaimed his kingdom in the end, but not for long. And now I'm crying.
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Bilbo is growing an attitude, now. I approve. The dwarves were quick to complain about Bilbo when Gandalf first introduced them, and Bilbo seemed more cowed (or simply too polite) to talk back to them, but now it's like I JUST SAVED YOUR DAMN ASSES, BITCHES. YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO BACK IN THE CELLS AND DO IT YOUR OWN DAMN SELVES. Because really, complaining about the only escape plan is really not on - if someone else had a better way, then, yeah, complain all you want, but nobody else had any ideas.
I also like that Bilbo was sweet enough to return the keys to the guard so he wouldn't get into trouble for losing it, and the escape would be blamed on the Dwarves' own abilities to be cool Houdinis.
AND MY FIRST THOUGHT AT THE ARRIVAL AT THE MEN'S SETTLEMENT WAS MEN LIVE IN CRANNÓGS! TOLKIEN IS MY HERO FOR ADDING IRISH HISTORY IN MIDDLE EARTH (even though we'll happily claim Viking History (and by extension the Vikingish Rohan, too) as ours, too - they were here before the Normans and the English, we like them better :P)
Seriously, though. NOBODY EVER GIVE PONIES TO THORIN OAKENSHIELD FOR ONLY BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN TO THEM.
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I just inhaled my tea, damn you!
It's funny, re-reading the book I get the impression that none of them, even Thorin, really have a clear indication of what fighting the dragon actually means. Thorin himself was pretty much a kid when Erebor was lost, and he's the oldest of the group. So, I think they all have this sort of vague idea, but it's really about being noble and taking their home back, and of course they'll prevail, because he's the rightful king. I mean, Thorin never even actually confronts Smaug himself.
Which makes me wonder how the films are going to pan out, with all the emphasis on Thorin and his journey. Because his journey falls pretty flat. I just sort of feel sorry for him - like he lacked any stable parental figures and is burdened with this task of living up to what he thought his father and grandfather were.
Also, I'd originally taken Thorin's description of the fall of Erebor (he says none escaped through the front gate, and all the dwarves inside were killed - then says his father and grandfather turned up with singed beards) to mean that only Thror and Thrain survived, aside from whatever company was outside. But this must have included Dís, who was only 10 at the time (which, given she had her first child at 100, I'm taking to mean baby!Dís), and Frerin. So apparently they were all pottering around outside? Or maybe Thror and Thrain saved more people than I'd thought out the back way.
(I'm also really curious about naming conventions now, too, looking at the family trees. Siblings and Fathers - Sons seem to share similar sounding names - Hence Gróin --> Oin & Gloin --> Gimli, and Grór, Frór & Thrór --> Thrain --> Thorin... but then you have Thorin, Frerin and Dís, and Gróin and Fundin. )
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Also, I forgot to mention my utter joy that Bilbo caught a nasty cold from all his heroics. Somehow literary heroes never get colds no matter what icy dunkings they suffer. Tolkien again turnr the hero trope on its head.
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It's not in the book, but I can see how you'd get there.
(I'm afraid I'm too juvenile to say anything about naming conventions other than... Gróin. Heh.)
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CRANNOG FANS REPRESENT.
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Do any of them ever talk rationally about killing Smaug, or just stealing the gold back? Actually, I always found it interesting that they always talked about stealing back their treasure, and Bilbo being a burglar, because if I was Thorin I'd be like EXCUSE YOU THAT DRAGON STOLE IT FROM US, WE DON'T NEED TO STEAL IT BACK, IT'S STILL TECHNICALLY OURS.
I also like that Bilbo was sweet enough to return the keys to the guard so he wouldn't get into trouble for losing it
I loved that part too! It's those little kindnesses that make Bilbo such an endearing character.
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"sons of my father's daughter," on the other hand, probably does have either a single word or a formal construction. Tolkien doesn't use "cousins" because it doesn't carry the right connotations. Sister-sons (which is the terminology the Rohirrim use, and which is the traditional Middle English phrasing) are a big deal when you're trying to establish patrilineage - if you're a man, you can never be sure that your sons are your sons, but you can be damn sure your sister's sons belong to her.
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Olson goes on for quite a bit about luck at this point in his book, and I took some very vague notes that I cannot entirely decipher any more, so I'm not sure how much of this is him and how much of it is me.
It seems to me that there are two kinds of luck in The Hobbit. First off there's luck that creates an opportunity, like the lucky coincidences of, say, the butler being drunk at just the right time, or Bilbo managing to find the Dwarves in the forest after they've been taken by the spiders. These are opportunities that have to be seized: if Bilbo hadn't come up with the barrel plan, or if he hadn't been willing to attack the spiders, nothing would have come of it. (Interestingly enough, some of this was actually added in later - Tolkien originally had Bilbo tracking the Dwarves in Mirkwood, only to change it in later drafts to a lucky guess that sent him in the right direction. What this means I'm not sure, but it is interesting.)
The second kind of luck is the kind that turns disaster into good fortune - like when they stumble off the path in Mirkwood only to find out later that the end of the path they were on would only have gotten them killed. I'm even less sure of what this means than the first kind of luck. I keep wanting to put some kind of "dark cloud/silver lining" interpretation on it and then that sounds too saccharine. I am reminded, though, of what Gandalf says in the end - "You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit?" This almost implies a higher power putting a hand in, whether that higher power is Gandalf or someone else, but I hesitate to read too much into that one either. So.
(And then, of course, there's the thrush. He's a little bit of both kinds of luck at once, but I think he's largely a flying plot device. I'm willing to entertain arguments to the contrary, though.)
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I feel like there's an interesting distinction between eucatastrophic and catastrophic knowledge. Eucatastrophic knowledge strikes me as the sort of ace in the hole kind of knowledge - Bilbo's learning of Smaug's one weakness is arguably pretty useless to him personally because he hasn't a snowflake's chance in hell of actually slaying the dragon, but does enable Bard to kill Smaug. Conversely, you have Denethor gaining catastrophic knowledge via the Palantir, and coming to the (erroneous) conclusion that Gondor is done for, driving him to suicide. People like Gandalf and Bilbo don't pretend to know how things will turn out, and, inevitably, they turn out alright through a great deal of luck and bravery. One is closed and the other open-ended, I guess.
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