Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Four

[sigridhr]

  Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Four (The Hobbit)
Chapter VII: Queer Lodgings 
Chapter VIII: Flies and Spiders

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by forced attendance at the Vogon-Orcish Poetry Recitation Competition in Minas Morgul.  
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.  
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 1st February 2013 to Friday 8th February 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

Comments

[sigridhr]

Sorry I'm late, ladies and gentlehobbits. It's been a weird week.


"They took off their clothes and bathed in the river"
If this does not make it into the film, I shall write to the Times to express my displeasure.

I wonder what Beorn'll make of the fact that the Dwarf costumes are 90% fur and leather?

Interesting that Beorn's heard of Thorin but not Gandalf.

"and they all felt that the adventure was far more dangerous than they had thought"
… they thought they were going dragon slaying.
You know, I'm utterly convinced that nobody had any sort of plan regarding the dragon. Just a nebulous sort of 'we'll deal with it when we get there'. Which is pretty much the Council's approach to the Ring too… 'just start walking in the direction of Mordor and don't abandon the Ring anywhere. Good luck.'

There's something hilarious and wonderful about that to me - and it ties into Tolkien's mantra of hope, I suppose.

“Do we really have to go through?” groaned the hobbit.

“Yes, you do!” said the wizard, “if you want to get to the other side. You must either go through or give up your quest. And I am not going to allow you to back out now, Mr. Baggins. I am ashamed of you for thinking of it. You have got to look after all these dwarves for me,” he laughed.

“No! no!” said Bilbo. “I didn’t mean that. I meant, is there no way round?”

You know, I understand why they had Bilbo (and Sam in LotR) have their crises where they turn back because it creates narrative tension, but I really love Bilbo's stick-to-itiveness. He's almost affronted that Gandalf thinks he would even consider going back, and I love that about him.

Mirkwood is deliciously creepy. I love it. Especially the parallels between Mirkwood and Fangorn, the way the trees are almost sentient and listen in on them as they pass under them. Mirkwood is explicitly creepy, though, were Fangorn is creepy because it's so old - like a remnant of a lost time, I suppose. And the Old Forest.

There's something about forests in Tolkien's work - they're almost always timeless places. Elu Thingol meets Melian in a forest, I think, and winds up staying there for ages (WHICH IS HILARIOUS GUYS. HE LIKE WANDERS OFF - IN MY HEADCANON FOR A PEE BREAK - AND DOESN'T COME BACK FOR LIKE 100 YEARS AND EVERYONE'S LIKE 'WHERE WERE YOU DUDE, WE'RE GOING TO VALINOR' AND HE'S JUST LIKE 'NOPE, I'M GETTING MARRIED.'), Lothlórien is explicitly timeless, Fangorn and the Old Forest are both like pieces of the Old World preserved, and then Mirkwood, which feels like stepping into an entirely different sort of story altogether - as Jenavira said above, it's very Celtic. Plus there's the moment when Bilbo climbs the tree and it appears literally endless to them. There's something really transformative about forests that I find really, really cool.

I guess Tolkien must've changed around the ages - because he says Fili is the youngest here, but he was born TA 2859 and Kili in TA 2864.

UGH. The description of the spider when it's first attacking Bilbo gives me the wiggins every time.


CAN WE TALK ABOUT BAMF!BILBO. He kills a spider with a SINGLE GODDAMN ROCK.

"the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West".
… What does this mean, precisely? That the elves that went to Valinor are Faeries? So, there's a rumour that one of Bilbo's ancestors was a High Elf?

Belligerent!Thorin is going to be the highlight of the films for me. Seriously. Amazing.

[j_quadrifrons]

Someone has drawn an utterly glorious fanart of the Dwarves bathing in the river and Bilbo looking somewhat put out (and Bifur lurking in the shallows)...I shall have to see if I can dig it up, but I'm not browsing tumblr at work, that seems like a bad idea.

I think their plan for this Quest went something like:
1. Assemble Company.
2. Travel to Erebor.
3. ???
4. Profit!
(By the time they reach the Mountain the "???" has been replaced with "Burglar does something," and the Burglar is not happy about it.)

...you have made me wonder if there are Ents in Mirkwood. I suspect not, I don't think they'd put up with the spiders, and the Necromancer would have had a harder time taking it over if there were Ents. But were there ever? Once upon a time?

Nono, the best part is that Thingol (who was Elwë at the time) had gone off to meet Finwë in the forest for Unspecified Reasons and then ran into Melian and kind of never came back. So eventually Finwë got tired of waiting for him and everyone elected Thingol's brother Olwë to be king instead if their other king was apparently not coming back and then they all fucked off to Valinor and next time anyone sees him he has a wife and a daughter and a new language and a giant system of caves and trade routes with Dwarves and all Finwë got was dead. (Well, and a shitty son.)

BILBO KILLING SPIDERS WITH ROCKS, he is my hero. (I am a little arachnophobic; not badly, but this scene in the movie will cause me to hide behind my hands. Killing spiders is obviously a Good and Heroic Thing.)

I think he's referring to Valinor as Faerie, that magical other-place that isn't really part of the mortal world, more than making any distinctions about Faeries and Elves. Besides, it's vastly more likely that, if Elves were intermixing with Hobbits, it'd be Sindarin Elves. (Can you picture any of the Noldor marrying a Hobbit? Good lord.)

Thorin and Thranduil's epic sass-off is going to be the greatest thing that happens this year, I cannot wait.

[sigridhr]

I think I've seen it - and adored it.

Haha! I've always secretly hoped there was a nod to the Entwives somewhere that I could dig up. Maybe they're hanging out somewhere in Mirkwood. :P 'Course we have sentient trees of a sort in the Old Forest too.

Hahahahahahahaha. Why everyone doesn't read the Silmarillion is entirely beyond me because it's fucking amazing.

Ah, that makes sense. I can't really picture any of the elves marrying a hobbit, to be honest. It just does not compute.

IT TOTALLY IS. I AM SO EXCITED. I think film two will be my favourite, given what's meant to be in it. Unless they fuck it up. But wet dwarves, sassy!Thorin, sassy!Thranduil, dwarves in prison, BEORN, and possibly Gandalf taking on the Necromancer.

I WANT IT NOW.

[j_quadrifrons]

Are you kidding? If there were Entwives in Mirkwood the spiders wouldn't have lasted two days.

Everyone doesn't read the Silmarillion because if you're not paying careful attention the language will put you to sleep through some of the most amazing bits. I prefer to just go around telling the stories at people so they understand why Fëanor is such a failboat and Galadriel is the greatest badass ever to walk the face of Middle-Earth.

I've always assumed that rumors about a Took taking a fairy wife were just that, hobbity rumors that have no actual basis in reality. But you never know, I suppose.

IS IT DECEMBER YET?

[sigridhr]

Well, my pet theory is that the Entwives, like some of the Ents, have sort of turned into trees. I think there's a line about how some of the older Ents have stopped moving altogether or become more like the Huorns (less conscious, I suppose).

I suppose they still would have eaten the spiders for breakfast, though.

Fëanor is my favourite failboat ever. What a little (glorious) snot. NOBODY IS MORE AWESOME THAN HALETH TO ME THOUGH. I love Haleth so damn much and secretly ship Haleth/Caranthir like whoa.

NO IT IS NOT AND IT IS A POINT OF GREAT DESPAIR TO ME.

[j_quadrifrons]

I like this theory, I like it a lot. I choose to believe that they have turned into trees in the Shire, though, because I agree with Treebeard that the Shire does seem exactly like the kind of place they would enjoy.

Fëanor is the world's biggest failboat, how he lives as long as he does is a terrible mystery to me. ...I admit to not remembering Haleth, it has been a long time since I read the Silmarillion and I'm only up to Chapter Fourteen in the Rewrite. (BUT I'M ABOUT TO GET TO FINGON AND MAEDHROS ZOMG.)

[sigridhr]

Perhaps they went off to shepherd the old forest and then sort of tree-ified there?

Haleth's family and people were decimated by orcs while they were held up under siege for days, and she rallies them alone and leads them on a final desperate charge and is kicking orc but when Caranthir turns up. He offers her protection, but she refuses and marches her people through the Valley of Dreadful Death where Ungoliant used to hang out, and then is granted a place to settle by Thingol on lands that used to be within the girdle of Melian. She was elected chieftain and afterwards they called themselves the People of Haleth.

She is so badass and does not get enough appreciation.


GAGHEOAGJEAOW FINGON AND MAEDHROS MAKE MY HEART HURT.

[j_quadrifrons]

...Haleth is my new superhero. You may rest assured that I will give her all the credit she is due when I get to that part in the Rewrite.

FINGON AND MAEDHROS ALFKJEKSLJA I honestly cannot deal with them and the FEELINGS that they give me.

[sigridhr]

It's pretty much my mission in life to go around telling people about how awesome Haleth is. There are so many characters in the Silm it's easy to miss her - especially since he pretty much just narrates what happens to her and moves on, but when you actually look at it SHE IS SUCH A BAMF. And we don't get many human women BAMFs.

She's like a better version of Eowyn for me. I wish he'd written more about her. SOMEDAY I WILL WRITE MY EPIC HALETH FANFIC. Someday.

OH MY GOD MAEDHROS AND FINGON. I pretty much spend the entirety of the Silmarillion reading small passages and then putting the book down when I sob uncontrollably because Maedhros and Fingon, and then Fingolfin's death and oh geezus everything hurts.

[j_quadrifrons]

This is what I love about Middle Earth, it's so huge and there's so much going on that you can just miss awesome shit like that. And then, lo, one day you are going about your business and are just blindsided with awesome.

DON'T REMIND ME THAT FINGOLFIN DIES I am in the middle of a passionate love affair with Fingolfin, The Elf Who Just Would Not Fucking Lie Down And Die, and I cannot deal with him dying

*sob*

[sigridhr]

You. And. Me. Both.

If they ever made a film of the Silmarillion, that scene would have me in pieces.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

There's something hilarious and wonderful about that to me - and it ties into Tolkien's mantra of hope, I suppose
That's such a great way of looking at it - they just have this blind optimism and perseverance, and that's enough to get them through.

I noticed that about Fili and Kili - it said that Fili had the best eyesight. So what does that mean for the whole Durin line canon? Would Kili have been Thorin's successor?

[sigridhr]

I suppose it didn't matter too much to Tolkien, given... well. :P