Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Four

[sigridhr]

  Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Four (The Hobbit)
Chapter VII: Queer Lodgings 
Chapter VIII: Flies and Spiders

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by forced attendance at the Vogon-Orcish Poetry Recitation Competition in Minas Morgul.  
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.  
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 1st February 2013 to Friday 8th February 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

Comments

[j_quadrifrons]

Can I just talk about how much I love Beorn? Like Tom Bombadil, he doesn't seem to fit neatly into Tolkien's world, but he absolutely belongs there. He's a morally ambiguous character, frightening and bloodthirsty (I mean, he has an orc head and a warg skin on his door) but he is a good and loyal friend. (He kills Bolg in the BoFA.) And, of course, he's very much a literalization of the Nordic berzerker, in the same way that huorns are a literalization of "Birnam wood comes to Dunsinane."

The slow accumulation of Dwarves at Beorn's house is one of my very favorite things. That, and the fact that he doesn't know Gandalf. I do believe he's one of the only people in Middle Earth who doesn't know Gandalf.

"Flies and Spiders" always terrified me, not because of the spiders, but because of the dark. (In Tolkien, spiders and darkness are profoundly linked - Ungoliant creates a Darkness for Melkor to sneak around in, so probably these spiders, who are descendants of hers, do something similar.)

I also love the creepy Celtic fairy-tale-ness of Mirkwood. The sleeping river, the endless dreams, the fairy hunt, the black butterflies. Creepy and wonderful. I think this gets across the ethereal other-worldliness of the Elves much better than their ridiculous tra-la-la-lally in Rivendell, but of course Tolkien meant for both of them to be true.

This post is turning into an epic, so theorizing about Elves in a new comment.

[halberdier]

Gandalf knows how to work his audience - ad breaks every five minutes to build up tension and introduce people :P

Also, how does *anybody* in Middle Earth not know Gandalf? (Well, I suppose he knows him now for the next time, lol)

[j_quadrifrons]

It is rather delightful to realize that we're actually seeing someone meet Gandalf for the first time. It can't happen very often. (One imagines Beorn telling this story later to the Beornings.) (I don't know if the Beornings are meant to be bear cubs, but that's what I always think, so.)

[sigridhr]

I love how once he's decided he likes the Dwarves, he really likes them - to the extent that they spill all the beans and he's happy to help them.

And - of course - there's Shelob, who is beaten back by the light of Eärendil. Like in Mirkwood it's the darkness that separates them and allows Frodo to be captured - like Ungoliant's darkness destroys the two trees and lets Morgoth take the Silmarils (I think? I hope I'm remembering that right). There's a lot of light/dark symbolism in Tolkien. There's Moria (which literally means 'black pit') when it gets its Balrog infestation - and then we have Gandalf the Grey falling literally into the black pit, but re-emerging from it as Gandalf the White and bringing hope. Not to mention the added symbolism of Moria being empty when we see it - as contrasted to Gimli's description of Moria as a place of light in Durin's time:

In many-pillared halls of stone
With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.
The light of sun and star and moon
In shining lamps of crystal hewn
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
There shone for ever fair and bright.

So you also have the darkness of Moria as an empty place, and the failure of Balin to reclaim it.

And of course the darkness of the dawnless day that begins the battle on the Pelennor, which is broken by the Rohirrim who literally bring the sunshine. I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them right now.

I love how Mirkwood is described as being the most dangerous part of their journey (nevermind the dragon, shall we). I guess that says something about the profound psychological effect of darkness in Tolkien's work.

[j_quadrifrons]

That is a truly excellent catalog of the effects of darkness in Tolkien (entirely right on Ungoliant, too).

I always have to wrestle with my mental images of Dwarven cities, because my default assumption for caves = dark, and of course they aren't supposed to be. Hm. I feel like there's something to be said here for the way that Elves live in forests, which can also tend to be dark places but are for the most part out in the natural light (Elves are, of course, also strongly associated with starlight) while Dwarves obviously make their own light. I'm not sure where to go with it, but it's interesting.

You know, I'd forgotten that Mirkwood really is called the most dangerous part of the journey (I suppose the dragon doesn't count because it's technically the end-point, not the journey); I just remember that I was terrified of it as a child, and I loved it.

[j_quadrifrons]

SO this is probably only relevant/interesting if you've read the Silmarillion, but I have two theories about how the Sil crept its way into the Hobbit while Tolkien was writing, and this is where the first of them comes in. I think Thranduil (the elf-king of The Hobbit, who's never actually named until the Appendices of LotR) was originally meant to be Elu Thingol, Elwë, and when Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings and further developed the Sil stories he relocated some things in time and space.

Thranduil and Thingol are the only Elves who live in caves, which is pretty damn unusual for Elves - heck, even Legolas does a lot of complaining about caves in LotR, and he presumably grew up in Thranduil's cave-palace. The story about theft and/or payment causing a rift between the elf-king and the dwarves is damn near identical to the story in "Of the Ruin of Doriath" about Thingol and the Nauglamír, except for the part where Thingol gets killed.

Exactly how much of the story of Thingol and Doriath was written when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit is hard to say, but the similarities positively drip. Of course, by the time of LotR, Tolkien reconciled the two by naming the elf-king Thranduil, son of Oropher. Oropher was a refugee from Doriath, a survivor of the battle which killed Thingol, so now the two stories resonate nicely together. Thranduil has as much reason to distrust Dwarves as Thorin has to distrust Elves.

[sigridhr]

I LIKE THIS THEORY A LOT. A LOT A LOT.

[j_quadrifrons]

Wait until the next one comes in!

Also, thanks entirely to this theory, I have now started rewriting the whole history of the Fall of Doriath with added Thingol/Telchar. My brain insists on the parallel.

[halberdier]

Beorn speaks to me on so many levels. (Ursine name FTW! I love appropriate names for characters, and I can just picture Beorn ) I don't remember much about the first time I read it, but I do remember Beorn. My metaphoric ears pricked up at the mention of Beorn.

He has a code of honour all his own and still understandable: he will protect those he calls friend/family - even or especially from himself; he will defend his territory fiercely; he treats his servants/subordinates as well as he does his guests (even if he doesn't know the polite reply to the Dwarves' "At Your Service"es, lol) so hospitality win (how many mythologies hinge on good hospitality from random strangers? It feels like a lot).

Poor Bilbo is so very conscious of class differences, even after all he's been through: let me qualify that, and say that I don't think he's snobby, just hyper-aware of the absolute correct pecking order, whether anybody else cares about it or not. And he misses those poor buttons of his so much, it's sweet. Almost lost his life NOTHING compared to the gumdrop buttons on his waistcoat ;)

I'm arachnophobic and intend skipping any and all spidery bits. They have too many legs and eyes. What do they need them all for, anyway? (ANd why is fantasy as a genre so enamoured of them? Seriously, ALL the VGs I play have scary-ass spiders, all the books, all the movies, there is almost always an Acromantula or Frostbite Spider or something just around the corner. Do they know I'm scared?)

EDIT because apparently I don't know how to internet anymore (Google why you change format? WHY???)

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you about Bilbo and how aware he is of what social etiquette he should be using. When he first meets Beorn all he can think is ‘he had no hat to take off, and was painfully conscious of his many missing buttons.' It's so quintessentially British. I love how Bilbo does and thinks all of these really every day little things, but then also has the courage to complete his quest with the dwarves. It makes him so much easier to relate to as a character.

[sigridhr]

I love the contrast between Bilbo's need for manners and social niceties (and the Dwarves' as well - Thorin, I think, gets put out by Bilbo not returning compliments when he ought have in chapter one) and Beorn's utter disregard for them. You're right - it's not snobbery so much as it's a comfort to him.

[halberdier]

Also, can I just say WHAT is it with the sheer number of sleep-enchanted bodies of water in Fantasy/mythology? The stream in Mirkwood, Lethe, that lake in Pierce's Realms of the Gods... What is it with sleepytime water sources, especially ones that appear when travellers are at their thirstiest?

[j_quadrifrons]

Apparently little Michael Tolkien felt as you do about spiders, and that's why there are so many of them in The Hobbit, they're there specifically to frighten him. :)

[(Anonymous)]

I tried to find a source for why spiders are one of the go-to fantasy monsters, but there doesn't seem to be any. I came across just as many tales of spiders being good, but I guess they're easy to make into something scary since they're freaky looking up close and many are venomous. Plus there's a cleverness associated with them through the way they catch their prey.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed these two chapters so much! So much happens in them, it's brilliant!

I quite liked the comparison between the dwarves, Beorn and the elves in terms of how they view treasure and things that they've crafted. The dwarves love their own handiwork, but they use it to make beautiful things made of precious metal and jewels. Beorn seems to make all of his own things, but using natural material, mostly wood, and for a purely practical purpose. And then it says that the elven-king had a treasure hoard that he's building up, but that his people don't actually make anything themselves. So you've got these three groups that all have different ideas about the value of handmade objects and what they're used for.

Another thing I noticed was that there seems to be some kind of connection between Bilbo and sleeping, or rather, the times when he's asleep. So far, there seems to be a recurring pattern that Bilbo is often awake at opportune times when the others are sleeping, then asleep or unconscious when the others are awake. Like when Bilbo awakes in the night when Gandalf and the dwarves are all asleep and hears scuffling at the door of Beorn’s hall; but in the morning, the dwarves are all up and having breakfast whilst he's still asleep. And earlier in the story, he's late setting out on the first day of the adventure because he wakes up late, and then there's the whole thing with waking up early in the goblin's front porch and realising what's happening before anyone else. And of course, he spends the final battle knocked out. I wonder if this is highlighting how different Bilbo is to the others, and also how useful this makes him to them – he ends up seeing things the others don’t see because he is conscious at different times (and he does literally have better eyesight than the dwarves as well).

Also, I didn't notice when reading The Hobbit before, but the spiders capturing the dwarves and binding them up in webs is basically a repeat of the trolls capturing them and putting them in sacks, with Bilbo being free in both situations. Only Gandalf was there to rescue them from the trolls, but this time Bilbo has to do it on his own. Which makes me so proud of how far he's come on this journey, because he's basically filling in for Gandalf. And the dwarves are so appreciative of him for that, and then I just get too many hobbit feelings and lose all coherence.

One of my favourite humorous parts of the book has got to be: ‘no spider has ever liked being called Attercop, and Tomnoddy of course is insulting to anybody.’

[sigridhr]

And Smaug, who is treated with some disdain in that he hoards precious things but has no regard at all for their value. So there's arguably a fourth category there.

I wonder if this is highlighting how different Bilbo is to the others, and also how useful this makes him to them – he ends up seeing things the others don’t see because he is conscious at different times (and he does literally have better eyesight than the dwarves as well).

I love this reading of it a lot.

The naming of Sting is, I think, one of Bilbo's major turning points (between the mirrored besting of Gollum in the riddle game, and his riddles with Smaug). It's also the point where the Dwarves start expecting him to have the answers - which he does manage, in the end. I second your Hobbit feels because agehagoehawl; Bilbo absolutely rocks in this chapter.

[j_quadrifrons]

Terrific catch on Bilbo's sleeping habits.

He also has a couple of relevant dreams, I think, but I'm afraid I find Tolkien's dream sequences so opaque that I forget them instantly, so I couldn't tell you what they are.

(I'm with you on the Attercop and Tomnoddy line - I always remember it, and I will be very sad if they don't put Bilbo's little spider-taunting poems into the movie.)

[sigridhr]

Sorry I'm late, ladies and gentlehobbits. It's been a weird week.


"They took off their clothes and bathed in the river"
If this does not make it into the film, I shall write to the Times to express my displeasure.

I wonder what Beorn'll make of the fact that the Dwarf costumes are 90% fur and leather?

Interesting that Beorn's heard of Thorin but not Gandalf.

"and they all felt that the adventure was far more dangerous than they had thought"
… they thought they were going dragon slaying.
You know, I'm utterly convinced that nobody had any sort of plan regarding the dragon. Just a nebulous sort of 'we'll deal with it when we get there'. Which is pretty much the Council's approach to the Ring too… 'just start walking in the direction of Mordor and don't abandon the Ring anywhere. Good luck.'

There's something hilarious and wonderful about that to me - and it ties into Tolkien's mantra of hope, I suppose.

“Do we really have to go through?” groaned the hobbit.

“Yes, you do!” said the wizard, “if you want to get to the other side. You must either go through or give up your quest. And I am not going to allow you to back out now, Mr. Baggins. I am ashamed of you for thinking of it. You have got to look after all these dwarves for me,” he laughed.

“No! no!” said Bilbo. “I didn’t mean that. I meant, is there no way round?”

You know, I understand why they had Bilbo (and Sam in LotR) have their crises where they turn back because it creates narrative tension, but I really love Bilbo's stick-to-itiveness. He's almost affronted that Gandalf thinks he would even consider going back, and I love that about him.

Mirkwood is deliciously creepy. I love it. Especially the parallels between Mirkwood and Fangorn, the way the trees are almost sentient and listen in on them as they pass under them. Mirkwood is explicitly creepy, though, were Fangorn is creepy because it's so old - like a remnant of a lost time, I suppose. And the Old Forest.

There's something about forests in Tolkien's work - they're almost always timeless places. Elu Thingol meets Melian in a forest, I think, and winds up staying there for ages (WHICH IS HILARIOUS GUYS. HE LIKE WANDERS OFF - IN MY HEADCANON FOR A PEE BREAK - AND DOESN'T COME BACK FOR LIKE 100 YEARS AND EVERYONE'S LIKE 'WHERE WERE YOU DUDE, WE'RE GOING TO VALINOR' AND HE'S JUST LIKE 'NOPE, I'M GETTING MARRIED.'), Lothlórien is explicitly timeless, Fangorn and the Old Forest are both like pieces of the Old World preserved, and then Mirkwood, which feels like stepping into an entirely different sort of story altogether - as Jenavira said above, it's very Celtic. Plus there's the moment when Bilbo climbs the tree and it appears literally endless to them. There's something really transformative about forests that I find really, really cool.

I guess Tolkien must've changed around the ages - because he says Fili is the youngest here, but he was born TA 2859 and Kili in TA 2864.

UGH. The description of the spider when it's first attacking Bilbo gives me the wiggins every time.


CAN WE TALK ABOUT BAMF!BILBO. He kills a spider with a SINGLE GODDAMN ROCK.

"the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West".
… What does this mean, precisely? That the elves that went to Valinor are Faeries? So, there's a rumour that one of Bilbo's ancestors was a High Elf?

Belligerent!Thorin is going to be the highlight of the films for me. Seriously. Amazing.

[j_quadrifrons]

Someone has drawn an utterly glorious fanart of the Dwarves bathing in the river and Bilbo looking somewhat put out (and Bifur lurking in the shallows)...I shall have to see if I can dig it up, but I'm not browsing tumblr at work, that seems like a bad idea.

I think their plan for this Quest went something like:
1. Assemble Company.
2. Travel to Erebor.
3. ???
4. Profit!
(By the time they reach the Mountain the "???" has been replaced with "Burglar does something," and the Burglar is not happy about it.)

...you have made me wonder if there are Ents in Mirkwood. I suspect not, I don't think they'd put up with the spiders, and the Necromancer would have had a harder time taking it over if there were Ents. But were there ever? Once upon a time?

Nono, the best part is that Thingol (who was Elwë at the time) had gone off to meet Finwë in the forest for Unspecified Reasons and then ran into Melian and kind of never came back. So eventually Finwë got tired of waiting for him and everyone elected Thingol's brother Olwë to be king instead if their other king was apparently not coming back and then they all fucked off to Valinor and next time anyone sees him he has a wife and a daughter and a new language and a giant system of caves and trade routes with Dwarves and all Finwë got was dead. (Well, and a shitty son.)

BILBO KILLING SPIDERS WITH ROCKS, he is my hero. (I am a little arachnophobic; not badly, but this scene in the movie will cause me to hide behind my hands. Killing spiders is obviously a Good and Heroic Thing.)

I think he's referring to Valinor as Faerie, that magical other-place that isn't really part of the mortal world, more than making any distinctions about Faeries and Elves. Besides, it's vastly more likely that, if Elves were intermixing with Hobbits, it'd be Sindarin Elves. (Can you picture any of the Noldor marrying a Hobbit? Good lord.)

Thorin and Thranduil's epic sass-off is going to be the greatest thing that happens this year, I cannot wait.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

There's something hilarious and wonderful about that to me - and it ties into Tolkien's mantra of hope, I suppose
That's such a great way of looking at it - they just have this blind optimism and perseverance, and that's enough to get them through.

I noticed that about Fili and Kili - it said that Fili had the best eyesight. So what does that mean for the whole Durin line canon? Would Kili have been Thorin's successor?

[starliings.livejournal.com]

I love Beorn so much, he's like an angry Hagrid. I kind of see him as a sort of a '"""Father Nature"""" figure (if that even is a thing); he treats the animals like his children, he can change his skin and he has a very practical approach to life (no trinkets or gold or prizes). Also I love how he's so gentle with his animals but fierce as hell to enemies. AND I like to believe that the 'large long-bodied grey dogs' are Irish Wolfhound-esque which is totally the breed of dog I would have if I had time/money/space because they are massive and shaggy and amazing. But I digress.

I think one of the best things about The Hobbit is the fact that there's always an underlying comedy of this truckload of dwarves hiking around everywhere. Like Gandalf constantly counting them, them all bowling into Bilbo's house and turning up in pairs for Beorn. I just love dwarves a lot. Like this bit: 'Some of them even got up and bowed right to the ground before him, though they fell over with the effort, and could not get on their legs again for some time.' WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE ABOUT DWARVES.

Ha, when I'm feeling particularly sorry for myself, the first description of Mirkwood totally reminds me of university/studying/being away from home. Reason number 3253633 why I may in actual fact be a Hobbit...

'Then the elves put thongs on him, and shut him in one of the inmost caves' I'm sorry to lower the tone but DEAR LORD THE MENTAL IMAGES

[j_quadrifrons]

Your comment about Beorn struck a chord and I had to sit around for a few minutes thinking about what he reminds me of when suddenly I realized, it's Tulkas. (Beorn as a Valar? I'd buy it.) IIRC, Tulkas is also a Thor-derivative.

The Annotated Hobbit has a footnote explaining that the thongs in question are leather cords used to bind Thorin's hands. I had honestly never had any other mental image until I read that footnote. Thanks, Annotated Hobbit.

[hibari-sensei.livejournal.com]

I was amused at how co-dependent the dwarves seemed when Gandalf was going to part ways with them.

I love the description of the butterflies Bilbo sees when he's up in the tree. In addition to being beautiful imagery, it highlights the fact that hobbits are more agrarian and love the simple things in life while dwarves seem more industrial.

It's also interesting that the butterflies are clearly something positive while the moths are scary. I had to pause and think about how big "nearly as big as your hand" is for a hobbit or a dwarf. That's already ginormous for a human!

[starliings.livejournal.com]

'it highlights the fact that hobbits are more agrarian and love the simple things in life while dwarves seem more industrial'

I love this! I really enjoy all the times Bilbo notices the little things that the others don't see/care about.

[sigridhr]

Hahahaha! They totally are. I think they were secretly hoping Gandalf would magic them out of trouble in the end. :P