Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

[sigridhr]

 *smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited. 
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :) 

Comments

[sigridhr]

May I be the first to say, take ALL the time you need to write that smut.

I wasn't struck quite as much by the idea that they were really greedy when I read it - though that's probably because I re-read the Quest of Erebor right before the chapter. I thought that little moment was nicely counterbalanced by Thorin's immediate desire to go haring off to Dol Goldur at the mention of Thráin's captivity there.

“We have long ago paid the goblins of Moria,” said Thorin; “we must give a thought to the Necromancer.”

I guess I figured that he had a kill list, and Smaug and the Necromancer were on it. The treasure was certainly a big factor, but so was revenging themselves upon Smaug. Which is one of those silly male notions of 'honour' – so I suppose you could say that's equally egregious a fault as simple greed. :P

[dragonthalyne]

I'm behind on reading all these comments, so sorry if I repeat something someone said above. (I'll take a look at them all after this.) ((And smut! I'm all for smut.))

Anyways, on the subject of dwarven greed, I agree with the honor aspect. I was talking with one of my friends about this earlier this month. I'm going to need to try and find quotes that back me up from the books, but I really enjoyed the fact that they emphasized the Lonely Mountain/Erebor as home for the dwarves: It's not just the gold, or revenging themselves on Smaug. They're connecting with their ancestors and grounding themselves in a familiar place. Even then it's not just treasure, it's treasure that was toiled over by their families all those years ago, so it has that pride that comes out of a well-done project and thus holds that much more meaning for them. I can totally get behind that.

[meinterrupted]

the fact that they emphasized the Lonely Mountain/Erebor as home for the dwarves

I didn't see that so much in the book. It was more greed--and yes, now that you mention it, revenge too. They already had a home in the Misty Mountains, and seemed comfortable there (as Thorin pointed out). They did emphasize the diaspora aspect more in the movie, which I think was an excellent choice on PJ's part, to make an adult audience more willing to sympathize with them. BUt I didn't see that as much in the novel.

[sigridhr]

I find it parallels the oath of Fëanor, actually. It's greedy, yes, and dangerously ill-conceived and would be better for everyone (sort of) if they just let it go, but there's also an unsettled question of both honour, and a right to possess things they've wrought.

And, things go bad, but it turns out for the best in the end. If you consider the Quest of Erebor as canon, I think there's more evidence of it not just being about greed, but based alone on the book I'd agree with you. It certainly seems to have been Bilbo's impression of them, at least. :P

[meinterrupted]

I think you make an important point--we are seeing this from Bilbo's point of view. And we should take this into account. He's probably letting his previous impression of dwarves--for all that he's met a few, he still likely associates them more with the stories about them than not--and the stories about dwarves are often about treasure and such. So Bilbo may well have downplayed their need for revenge/get back what is theirs in his mind, and attributed more of their motivation to greed than was true.

[sigridhr]

I think Gandalf's account in the Quest of Erebor emphasizes that Thorin's motives were more complex than straightforward greed. I definitely think you're right that Bilbo probably injected quite a few of his own biases into the narrative. Plus, the treasure was the presumable selling point to Bilbo as a burglar as well, wasn't it? So it doesn't strike me as odd that it would be more emphasized in the conversation at Bag End, than Gandalf and Thorin's earlier, private conversation.

[dragonthalyne]

Also, question about backstory if anyone knows. When did Gandalf actually join the dwarves in this particular quest? Because in the book, they're all gathered already all ready to head off to Erebor together. But did Thorin set this all up himself and did Gandalf later find them and offer to help? Or did Gandalf suggest it to Thorin so he could use them to handle Smaug before the Necromancer/Sauron got too powerful?

[sigridhr]

This is detailed in the Quest of Erebor. Thorin approached Gandalf and said he was off to go kill Smaug, and asked him to find a fourteenth member for the company. Gandalf picked Bilbo (and Thorin took some convincing). Gandalf explicitly says that he was concerned with Smaug – he worried that if Sauron was to come back, Smaug could be a very deadly weapon. He was also, at the time, planning to oust Sauron from Dol Goldur, so it makes sense it would be forefront on his mind.

So, Thorin's mission was serendipitously timely for Gandalf, and related to his business for the White Council – hence his interest. Plus, once he'd met Thorin, he figured out that he was wandering around with the key to the back door of Erebor – so, again, serendipitously timely. :)

[anki_koda]

So, I was wondering and I apologize for the change of subject but, after the battle and the quest, would Bilbo had stayed in Erebor if Thorin, Kili and Fili had survived? I mean, as soon as everything was over he went back and all that, but I have always wonder if maybe, a part of him, would wish to stay...Perhaps if Thorin had been there to invite him or something.

[j_quadrifrons]

parallels the oath of Fëanor my god are you trying to kill me

you know this makes Fili Maedhros

brb crying