Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One

[sigridhr]

 *smashes a bottle of champagne over the post* And we're off!

Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week One (The Hobbit)
Chapter I: An Unexpected Party
Chapter II: Roast Mutton

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by a barefoot gauntlet walk across a set of lego pieces. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too nerdy. Or too excited. 
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 11th January 2013 to Friday 18th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

(I'm cheating a bit, as it's not quite the 11th here yet, but I want to get this up before I go to work tomorrow, and 6am posting is just asking for disaster). Have at it, guys! :) 

Comments

[sigridhr]

‘But this is terrible!’ cried Frodo. ‘Far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do? For now I am really afraid. What am I to do? What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!’

‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.’

[...]

'He deserves death.’

‘Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many – yours not least. In any case we did not kill him: he is very old and very wretched. The Wood-elves have him in prison, but they treat him with such kindness as they can find in their wise hearts.’

Luck? Or Gandalf meddling?

[anki_koda]

Good Point.

I mean, we know Gandalf likes to involve in every single thing that happens on Middle Earth and there is something about him that always lead him to take the right decisions. Perhaps is his Maiar powers.

[sigridhr]

I'd have to re-read some of the stuff in, I think, the Unfinished Tales on the treachery of Saruman. No one knew until LotR that Saruman was a traitor, however.

From what I recall (somebody correct me if I'm getting this wrong), Saruman spent a lot of time brushing aside people's concerns, insisting the Ring had flown from the Anduin into the sea and would never be recovered, and so on. I think this didn't sit quite right with some (Gandalf? I'm not sure), in the sort of I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it sense, but I think Gandalf also said that they acknowledged Saruman as an expert on these matters because it was his specialist area of study, so to speak.

But Saruman was meant to be the head of the order of the Istari (wizards), and that was presumably assigned by whoever sent them to Middle-Earth in the first place, and for whatever purpose they were sent (presumably to manage Sauron).

[anki_koda]

I am so going to get that book! This week I'll walk to college so I can buy it :)

Still, I know somewhere they said Galadriel actually want for Gandalf to be at the head of matters but in the end they decided Saruman would be better for that. Or maybe is my wishful thinking regarding Gandalf/Galadriel relationship.

[sigridhr]

I have a theory about this (I wrote an essay on it, actually). I think Gandalf is an embodiment of wisdom, in contrast to Saruman's knowledge. Gandalf sees the pieces of information, and synthesizes them into something he can act upon.

So, he's wise in the sense that he knows a) there's a dragon in Erebor that needs to be dealt with, because if shit goes down and the dragon sides with Sauron, Imladris and many other places are, literally toast; b) there's a Necromancer in Dol Goldur who is very probably Sauron, and that needs to be dealt with; and c) I've just been approached by a Dwarf who wants the dragon gone, and I've got a backdoor key.

So, he takes this information, and he has the wisdom to see that a burglar would be better than a warrior, and that Bilbo, who he'd noted, and sort of put aside in the back of his mind, might be precisely what is needed – presumably because he's noted how resilient Hobbits are, and how wise Bilbo himself is (or at least has the potential to be).

Saruman, on the other hand, becomes lured by the knowledge that he amasses about the Ring. About it's power, its indestructibility, and the inevitability that, if it is found, Sauron will reclaim it. And he despairs – which is pretty much a one-track road to DOOM in Tolkien's writings – and decides his best course of action is to try and take the Ring himself.

But a wiser person might have seen that there was, indeed, hope, and that no matter how powerful Saruman was, himself, he could not wield the Ring without it doing Sauron's will.

[anki_koda]

This semester I sign up for a Tolkien class. I am so going to ask for your help if you don't mind.

I never thought about it that way, but you do make a fine, perfect, point about. In the end all of Gandalf's plans play out well it is because he trust in the right people. Hobbits mostly. :)

[sigridhr]

Hmm... That's interesting. Galadriel certainly had a fair bit of foresight thanks to her Dishpan of Ominous Seeing.

Haha! I'm really curious about the Elrond/Galadriel (platonic, obviously) relationship. She's his mother in law, so I want to know what she thinks of him.

[anki_koda]

She must have seen something in Elrond to trust him her beloved daughter. But, yes, I am curious as well over all after what happen to her daughter. Also, I wouldn't mind knowing what kind of relatinship she has with Elrohir and Elladan.

[sigridhr]

YOU HAVE A TOLKIEN CLASS?!
WHY AM I NOT ENROLLED AT YOUR SCHOOL? CAN I JUST COME AND SIT THERE AND BE EXCITED?

Rule 24. When you want shit done, hire a Hobbit. :P

[sigridhr]

I got really excited and distracted and failed to actually answer the question: no, I don't mind at all. I'd probably enjoy that. :P

[sigridhr]

Well, I'm sure if Celebrían had wanted it she'd've got her way no matter what. :P They had a son, too, though, didn't they? Amroth? Who was lost... something to do with boats, I can't remember.

And then Arwen doesn't sail west, and they lose her forever. And Elladan and Elrohir's fates are never confirmed, so it's possible they never sailed either.

Excuse me while I nurse my heartbreak in the corner.

[anki_koda]

God yes!!! I would love it so that I'm not the only one freaking out because of it! :)

HAHAHAHAHA, That's so true!! (okay, is it true or truth?)

[anki_koda]

That's the best family ever. I know Elrond must have suffered but he knows and understands Arwen would only be happy with Aragorn.

[anki_koda]

Thank you!

[sigridhr]

I feel like I would fit in very nicely in a Tolkien class. :P

Either 'that's so true', or 'that's the truth'. :)

[sigridhr]

Elrond has such a laundry list of suffering, it's not even funny.

His uncles are left in the forest to die. His father turns into a star, his mother turns into a bird. He's raised by Maedhros and Maglor, who, respectively, toss themselves into a chasm and go wandering on a beach forever. He makes friends with Gil-Galad.

Gil-Galad dies.
His brother choses to become human.
His brother dies.

He gets married, has three kids, one of them also choses to die.
And his wife gets tortured and (possibly) raped by orcs and sails west.
His sons may or may not also chose to die.

It's a miracle Elrond didn't chose to die.

[anki_koda]

Oh, I've been waiting for that class because every time I tried to sign up I have some other class that I need to see before that and....ugh, it's just a mess.

[anki_koda]

I guess that's what makes him so wise. I mean, with all the suffering you have three choices going mad, die or try and learn and help others. It is quite interesting actually how Elrond was always there trying to help or do something about it.

[sigridhr]

I sort of love everyone in these books, but I love Elrond more. So. Much. Love.

I like how he's described as 'kind as summer', even after all that. You're right – he took the shit life flung at him and made everything better for the people around him. And he's the most welcoming of all the elves we see – he'll pretty much let anyone stay over, and he fosters generations of Dúnedain kids.

[anki_koda]

I have this image of kid!Aragorn watching the Dwarves and Bilbo arrived and suddenly splash! they are covered in water, the Elves laugh and Elrond is just glaring at that spot when he knows Sragorn is hidding with the twins.

I just..I don't know... :) It makes me happy think about it

[anki_koda]

You know? I also find it interesting how much he appreciates Bilbo. I mean, Bilbo seems to be free to do as he like in his house and Elrond seems please by these.

[sigridhr]

Well, Bilbo did prove himself quite the BAMF. I'd show some respect to anyone who laughed at a live dragon and lived to talk about it. :P

[anki_koda]

Can you imagine him arriving to the land of the Valinor and looking around all 'oh, this is pretty'. and going on like totally normal and Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf smiling behind him.

[j_quadrifrons]

Oooh, I'm happy to pop in with lore! I've been doing a lot of reading on Dwarves lately (although I don't have access to Peoples of Middle Earth which is driving me crazy).

We don't have much of the history of the Dwarves because they actually awakened much farther west than the Elves were living at the time - their early history is completely separate from anyone else, and the only texts we have of Middle Earth are from Elves and Men (who weren't even around yet, obviously). (Er, I take the framing device pretty seriously. Sorry.)

But they did open up trade routes pretty much as soon as they realized there was someone to trade with: Moria was an economic hub, when there weren't wars going on, and their cities in Ered Luin were an important source of arms for the early Elven kingdoms. (In fact, the Dwarves armed the Elves in Middle Earth - and brought them news so they weren't completely surprised by the first Orc attacks. Without them, there's a good chance Thingol's kingdom would have been wiped out before he even established Doriath.)

And Dwarves built Thingol's palace of Menegrath, of course. They seem to have gotten along pretty well until the whole Nauglamir incident, actually, although the Silmarillion does say they got along better with the Noldor (Fëanor's people) because they were both craftsmen.

(On rereading "On the Sindar," I have come to the conclusion that it isn't that Dwarves wouldn't teach the Elves their language so much that the Elves didn't care to learn it because they thought it wasn't pretty enough, and the Dwarves have been a little offended by this ever since and so won't try again. It's not quite what the text actually says, but it's not far off, and the Sil is from a very Elvish perspective, after all.)

[j_quadrifrons]

*flaily agreement*

In addition to Legolas getting Gimli into the Undying Lands (omg) can we talk about how the appendices make it clear that part of the reason Dwarves don't go West is also because Dwarves just - don't leave Middle Earth. Which makes sense. They were created there, they slept there, they were born there, they die there and stay there forever. Gimli is, therefore, the only Dwarf ever to love something *more* than he loves Middle Earth, enough to leave his homeland and follow his heart somewhere else.

*sniffle* Sorry, no, just something in my HEART, GIMLI HOW I LOVE YOU.