Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Nine

[sigridhr]

 Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Nine (The Hobbit)
Chapter XVII: The Clouds Burst
Chapter XIV: The Return Journey

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by forcing you to mediate at Christmas dinner in the house of Finwë. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.  
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 8th March 2013 to Friday 15th March 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

Comments

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I thought Thranduil's attitude to war with the dwarves was really honourable, when Bard and Thorin are obviously prepared to fight for the treasure: "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold […] Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation." The elves value beautiful objects and treasure like the dwarves do, but they don't seem to value it above life like the dwarves? Perhaps that's why Bilbo takes to Thranduil and the elves so completely. In the battle, Bilbo would even prefer to defend Thranduil, if it comes down to it, which is really interesting - I hope they'll explore the relationship between those two more in the movie.

Two things Bilbo says about the nature of war:

"I have always understood that defeat may be glorious. It seems very uncomfortable, not to say distressing."

"Victory after all, I suppose! […] Well, it seems a very gloomy business."

I feel like this, as well as the fact that we miss the majority of the action of the battle, is Tolkien trying to not glamorise war and violence, despite the fact that there is a lot of such is mentioned in the book. I like that he's so responsible in his storytelling, because it's so easy to make violence look exciting if you don't show the consequences properly, and this is a children's book. I hope that the movie sticks with the same tone, but it's going to be difficult, because I assume they won't skip over the big climactic battle.

Then Bilbo turned away, and he went by himself, and sat alone wrapped in a blanket, and, whether you believe it or not, he wept until his eyes were red and his voice was hoarse."

OH THAT'S OKAY, IT'S NOT LIKE I NEEDED MY HEART OR ANYTHING. And the fact that Thorin uses his dying words to say that Bilbo's values are right? Nggh, I'll just be over here crying into a puddle.

[sigridhr]

I feel like this, as well as the fact that we miss the majority of the action of the battle, is Tolkien trying to not glamorise war and violence, despite the fact that there is a lot of such is mentioned in the book.

This is my biggest pet peeve with the films. Because I really, really feel strongly about this. Faramir too has a line - I forget it precisely, but it's something like 'love not the sword for its brightness, nor the arrow for its sharpness, love that which they defend.' I think there's a lot of glorious death in Tolkien's work - but the scenes of war we do see are precisely the sort that weren't in WWI. You have a lot of one-on-one show downs as the focus for heroism (Eowyn vs. the Witchking), but the actual descriptions of battles, even the large scale ones, are usually fairly brief and the focus (imo) was always more on the aftermath and the way it affected the characters.

I think, in a way, you have a sort of old nobility of war coming up against the mechanization of war. The ride of the Rohirrim always reminds me a bit of those last desperate cavalry charges in WWI against machine guns - at least the way they were meant to have turned out.

But Peter Jackson, being the sort of guy he is, seems to revel in the fight scenes, and it drives me a bit up the wall. I don't want to see a long, glorious action sequence that glamourizes the fight - I want to see the characters. I really, really worry that film three is just going to be 90% GCI Battle of the Five Armies, and that will really annoy me.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm pretty sure I tagged that Faramir line in my copy of LotR when I was reading it. That's exactly Tolkien's message, so having big CGI battle scenes completely goes against that, because that's not what the story's about. One-on-one showdowns are a lot more character driven than the battle scenes where hundreds of faceless warrior-types are dying within the space of a minute.

I guess all we can do is hope that the film won't disappoint.

[starliings.livejournal.com]

That's really interesting, about Tolkien's attitude to war and violence. I love Bilbo actually, he is just so openly like NOPE with regards to battles and stuff, and I love that he's not ashamed to cry about Thorin. Just ugh, Bilbo, whatever you're doing you are doing it right.

I am so not ready for the battle bit in the film no thank you and good day.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I love that he's not ashamed to cry about Thorin

Bilbo's having none of that ridiculous manly stereotype crap, no sir.