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Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Three
Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Three (The Hobbit)
Chapter V: Riddles in the Dark
Chapter VI: Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire
Rules
I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:
Chapter V: Riddles in the Dark
Chapter VI: Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire
Rules
I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:
- Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by purchasing $10,000 worth of shares in Mordor Inc. in your name.
- There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources.
- There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.
- If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com.
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Corey observes that Gollum and Bilbo's riddles counter one another - Gollum tells a riddle about something creepy, so Bilbo tells a riddle about something bright and homey, so Gollum gets creepier, etc. etc. In that sense, Gollum wins the riddle game - the last proper riddle is his time riddle, which is pretty goddamn dark.
(I've always been entertained by Tolkien's observation that while Bilbo's question was not properly a riddle, by attempting to guess Gollum has accepted it and is bound by the rules of the game. I believe there's precedent in Norse myth for exactly that situation, actually.)
Tolkien geekery of the day: The Annotated Hobbit notes that someone has written a paper, published in Arda, on Tolkien's use of matches in the canon. (I would dearly love to read it.)
Two more observations from Corey. One: Although quite early on, this chapter is Bilbo's turning point in the story. Although he's incredibly lucky in the riddle game, this chapter marks the point where he becomes more proactive and really begins to think of himself as the professional adventurer that Gandalf advertised him as.
Two: Gollum's last mention in this book is his "shriek, filled with hatred and despair." That caught my eye, given our earlier discussion about despair as the one great evil in Tolkien's worldview.
Out of the Frying-Pan, etc:
I always forget that the wargs talk. (Talk about civilized monsters in unexpected places.) And yet they're still less terrifying than the goblins, because they're not sadistic, they're just giant intelligent wolves.
The goblins' song ("bake and toast 'em, fry and roast 'em") recalls the trolls from earlier. I like how the threat grows: they're still in danger of being roasted, but much more immediately. Also, Tom and Bert and William are pretty cuddly by comparison.
Balin bowing in respect to Bilbo's sneaking has always endeared him to me. <3 (Balin was my favorite Dwarf, and I cried when I read "The Mines of Moria" for the first time.)
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That point on matches is definitely interesting. I second the desire to read that essay.
Also, love the catch of Gollum's despair. He's almost wraith-like in that he's given up, but he can't let go while he's bound to the Ring and the Ring drives him forwards.
BALIN. I LIVE A BALIN APPRECIATION LIFE. I get really upset in Moria.
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I am now curious about Gollum and despair in LotR. Because he does eventually get over it and go hunting the Ring - or do Sauron's minions haul him out from under the mountains? I can't remember, but I think he did take the initiative first.
If you don't live a Balin appreciation life, you're doing it wrong.
(Learned from the appendices: Dwalin lives to 300+ years old. Which means he did not go to Moria with his brother, which means he probably got the news from Gimli after the War of the Ring. Added to the epic list of fanfictions I will probably never write.)
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Gandalf says that Gollum himself set out, and then was lured or captured and taken to Barad-dûr. It's explicitly desire for the Ring that sends him out - despite his aversion to light and his fear. It's interesting how desperate he becomes - he's afraid of the goblins getting it in the Hobbit, but by LotR he's referring to the orcs of Mordor as his 'friends', who will help him get his revenge, and they certainly do help him escape Mirkwood. I wonder if you can't still attribute some of these actions to the Ring, in a sense, in the same way Bilbo's lying about it can be put down to it.
Aaaand that's now on the list of fanfics I would desperately like to read. :P
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(Anonymous) 2013-01-26 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)Hmm. Interesting that the thing that overcomes Gollum's despair is his desire for the Ring. I think this is his proto-hobbit nature showing through, as hobbits are really the only creatures who react to the Ring in anything like that way. Still, one can't imagine that the Ring wants to go back to Gollum - it'd just end up stuck down in a cave again, which is clearly useless to it. (You're right, I can't remember how much of the Ring having its own personality is a Jackson invention.)
Well, thanks to finding a similar prompt on the kinkmeme, there's a chance I might actually write it now. Hmph. *reshuffles to-write list*
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Well, did anyone other than Gollum bear the Ring for as long, though? I wonder what would have become of Isildur if he'd held on to it as long. I've always wondered about Gollum's aging – after Bilbo gives up the ring he ages rapidly, but Gollum lives a good, what, eighty or so years on? How come he didn't die of old age – or was something about the RIng's continued existence continuing to prolong his life even after he gave it up?
WOOOT. I hope you do.
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Me too! I'd quite forgotten that they hold a meeting and discuss strategy when they're waiting for the goblins to arrive. I much prefer them to the mute wargs in the film, which just seem to be more or less like pets of the goblins.
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