Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Three

[sigridhr]

  Epic Tolkien Bookclub: Week Three (The Hobbit)
Chapter V: Riddles in the Dark
Chapter VI: Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire

Rules

I very much doubt we'll require much in the way of formal rules, but just for the sake of formality and clarity:

• Discussion is welcome and encouraged, as is disagreement. Name-calling and personal attacks will be punished by purchasing $10,000 worth of shares in Mordor Inc. in your name. 
  
• There is no spoiler policy in place. Although we're reading the Hobbit, please feel free to bring in things from other Tolkien works, any of the films, the History of Middle Earth, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, and, if you should like, other literary sources. 
• There is no such thing as too much geekery. Or taking the text too seriously.  
• If you have any concerns at any point, I'm the closest thing this gong show has to a mod, so feel free to get in touch. I can be reached either by PM through this site, or directly by email at sigridhr.lokidottir@gmail.com. 

Discussion on this post will officially run from Friday 18th January 2013 to Friday 25th January 2013. However, the post will remain open after that point, so you're more than welcome to continue discussions on. 

Comments

[meinterrupted]

I AM ACTUALLY GOING TO COMMENT ON THIS ENTRY.

Imma read the chapters on my lunch break.

[sigridhr]

YAY. :D

[sigridhr]

Chapter V:

I love that Bilbo's first response is to start smoking.

I'm a bit sad that Orcrist and Glamdring didn't glow blue in the film.

This is by far the creepiest chapter - I love it.

Polite!Gollum is hilarious. It's interesting - Gollum is such a calculating creature. I wonder how much Tolkien knew about Gollum when he wrote this - he clearly planned that Gollum was a Stoor of some kind, given he'd planned out his history to include living in a hole with his grandmother. Likewise, I wonder if he'd done any planning on the history of the ring at this point.

The fish riddle is my favourite. So creepily wonderful.

So, Gollum has pockets. Given how long he's been down there, it seems unlikely to me that his clothes would have survived - so I suppose he's either nicked them from the goblins or fashioned them himself. Something about him being clothed makes him more Hobbit-like for me than the loincloth in the films. I like the idea that, like the riddles and memories he's preserved from his life before the Ring, he keeps clothing as a sort of latent hangover of living within a complex society. The trolls as well are described as 'large persons' and have pockets (and anyway they would arguably best-fit a hunter-gatherer type society, and clearly do have an organized social structure of some kind given they live in groups), but the other sentient creatures we see who go mostly unclothed are Ungoliant, (arguably) Smaug, and Huan (I'm sure there are more, I just can't think of them at the moment). While they're sentient, they're also unique and solitary - not fitting into a larger society and never seen acting with others of their group. I guess I'd mentally put Gollum in that category, and something about him – even before Bilbo came along and caused him to remember things he'd started to forget about himself – wearing clothing makes me reconsider that assessment. Same with his attempt at manners – though Smaug pulls a similar trick in that he seems to be aware of conversational/social conventions, and manipulates them to his own ends.

'Course, then there's the Eagles, so I suppose I'm just talking nonsense.
:P I wonder what on earth he keeps batwing for, though.

I'm really, really disappointed that the film added footsteps for Bilbo in the scene where he's invisible in the caves. Hobbits are meant to be silent - that's part of why Gandalf chose a Hobbit as a burglar in the first place. And Gollum's not an idiot, and would have heard Bilbo if his footsteps were even half as loud as they were in the film.

Bilbo's pity for Gollum is quite possibly one of the highlights of the book for me. Because, like Frodo when he deals with Gollum, Bilbo is looking at a version of his future, even if he's not wholly aware of it. They came from similar roots - the riddles conversation demonstrated that - and Bilbo pictures this almost anti-Hobbit lifestyle. It's in a hole, but it is a nasty, dirty, wet hole filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, and it's alone.

He had lost: lost his prey, and lost, too, the only thing he had ever cared for, his precious.

This is pretty horrible, too, if it's the only thing Gollum's ever cared for. No friends or family, or anything before it. Smeagol was clearly a pretty ill-adjusted individual even before the Ring came along.

Chapter VI:

GANDALF IS ON TO YOUR SHIT, BILBO.

But, of course, Gandalf had made a special study of bewitchments with fire and lights

Yeah, because he's got Narya. Tolkien, you troll.

There were no wolves living near Mr. Baggins' hole at home, but he knew that noise.

You know, I sometimes forget how dark the history of the Shire gets. I mean, not long before Bilbo's lifetime you have famine and orc attacks, and the Fell Winter. I always think of it as really rosy and insular, but that's really only a recent development. And it's a bit sad, in way - because it's like their insularity is them trying to keep the big, dark world out because they're traumatized.

[meinterrupted]

This is pretty horrible, too, if it's the only thing Gollum's ever cared for. No friends or family, or anything before it. Smeagol was clearly a pretty ill-adjusted individual even before the Ring came along.

I rather think that this is telling that the Ring is the only thing that Gollum really cared for. I think that seeing the Ring, and having it dig its claws into Smeagol's mind is something of a defining moment, splitting Gollum and Smeagol apart. Or even more creepily, it's the Ring's influence in that he can't remember caring about anything, that the Ring has so infected his mind that everything else pales in comparison to this obsession. Because it really isn't love, any more than an abusive partner loves the object of his love/rage: it's obsession.

I wonder about the clothes thing too, tho I don't see why he can't have pockets in his loincloth. :P He would definitely have had to pilfer the clothes from the goblins, if he's been down there several hundred years (it was ~500, yes?). But I think that maybe that's another symptom of how thoroughly the Ring has gotten to him; there's no real reason for him to have pockets other than to carry it around.

Mmmm, I just like thinking about the amount of agency the Ring has. I mean, it obviously has a will of its own, and an endgame. Is it like a Horcrux, you think, where it's a part of Sauron's soul and its trying to reunite with him? But it also has some sort of forethought, in putting itself in Bilbo's hands. I mean, I'm sure it was rather aiming for a goblin, knowing what it does about their habits; a Ring-infected goblin would probably start to raise an army and march on *somewhere* pretty quickly, and gain Sauron's attention that way.

I am thinking thinky thoughts!

Still, I just love how *easy* this book is to read. It just trucks along!

[sigridhr]

Mmm... I hadn't taken the line to mean Gollum exclusively, but I suppose that makes sense. Gollum owes his existence to the Ring, after all.

I hadn't imagined pocketed loincloths... I suppose you could but... However, he clearly does carry things around, and notably not the Ring. He couldn't bear to carry it around anymore (interestingly), so he kept it on the island he lived on for safekeeping. So clearly he keeps pockets for other purposes (namely batswings, shells and a knife, apparently).

I definitely agree about the Ring having agency, though. Gandalf says as much too, doesn't he? Or is that exclusive to the films? (I NEED A BIGGER MEMORY, DAMMIT). But the Ring tries pretty hard here too to get away - Bilbo's visible when he's seen by the Goblins at the gate because the Ring has slipped off his finger. So, yeah, it's a tricky bugger. :P

[starliings.livejournal.com]

This is really interesting, I was wondering about the ring being a kind of sentient thing as I was reading this chapter. I'm a relative Tolkien newbie, but I know that the ring basically almost takes people over, and makes them overpowered by greed and everything, and that Bilbo's pity for Gollum was possibly one of the things which stopped him being so affected by it.
This bit:
'Whether it was an accident, or a last trick of the ring before it took a new master, it was not on his finger'
kinda made me think that this was almost the ring's punishment for Bilbo's act of pity, for him not letting himself be made completely evil by it. Also it says he felt a 'pang of fear and loss' on realising he wasn't wearing it, so the ring already has some power of him, even with his compassion, which usually does not compute with normal ring-bearer actions.

The whole ring thing is just gets more creepy and interesting the more you think about it!

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I did wonder about Gollum not carrying the ring around with him - it says that he started by wearing it, until it tired him, then he carried it around in a pouch, and eventually he had to leave it on his island. But at the same time he can't bear to be parted from it. Those are quite contradictory things to be feeling/doing, so I wonder how the ring makes you feel when you wear it. Obviously, it has a possessive effect over the wearer, making them covet and obsess over it, but it's also so draining that they can't be around it for most of the time. It does seem like that would be enough to drive anyone insane.

[j_quadrifrons]

I actually really like that aspect - that he has to keep it away from himself but he can't bear to be parted with it. It reminds me of people failing to recover from addiction, or people in really destructive relationships. It feels true, in other words, although horribly tragic.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's a great comparison actually! You know it's bad for you, but you can't stay away from it. And Gollum seemed to experience "withdrawal symptoms" when he was parted from the ring (although Bilbo didn't, but I suppose he did have it for like a tenth of the time Gollum did, so it was bound to have less of an effect).

[j_quadrifrons]

Literary history geekery: You are aware, of course, that the version of The Hobbit we read now is the second version, that in the first Gollum politely conceded that he'd lost the riddle game and showed Bilbo out of the caves in an orderly fashion, and that in 1951 Tolkien revised Gollum extensively to make him (and the Ring) fit into the canon of Lord of the Rings, which by then he was deep in the middle of. (One can only imagine how interesting it might have been to buy a new edition in 1951 and, upon reaching that chapter, do a double-take and start digging around for your dad's old edition in the attic, because that cannot be right.) The Annotated Hobbit has a list of the specific changes. Gollum does seem to have been a hobbit-like creature from the very first, though.

I like your observations about Gollum wearing clothes putting him closer to civilization than he otherwise seems. It makes me feel for him. (I'm in the middle of rereading Book IV of LotR right now, and I'm surprised at how much I do care about Gollum, even as he continues to be damn creepy. As beautiful as Andy Serkis's performances are, it's easy to forget that it is an exaggeration of the books in a lot of ways, and Gollum is really quite a subtle character in LotR.)

[sigridhr]

I was not aware and OMG.

Ok, well, that makes sense. Because I'd thought that he'd need a lot more worked out than I thought he'd had for this to work. I really, really need to get my hands on a copy of the annotated Hobbit. Really.

Yeah, I've found a lot more sympathy for Gollum in the past couple years. I definitely wonder where the line falls between Smeagol and Gollum in the books – Sam definitely delineates between Slinker and Stinker, but I do wonder if Bilbo didn't wake Smeagol up, in a sense, with the Riddles here. The movies certainly seem to imply it, at any right. But you're right, he's much subtler in the books.

[j_quadrifrons]

Oh! Well then. :D Yeah, Gollum fitting in so well with LotR is kind of artificial; he was specifically edited to fit. (Apparently Tolkien tried to go through and edit the whole book to make it work better, and eventually his friends sat him down and said, "It's just not The Hobbit any more," and he stopped.)

The movies lean heavily on Smeagol here, but the book definitely doesn't. (Corey points out that while Gollum argues with himself, it isn't an argument between good and bad halves, it's an argument between the half that thinks he'll be able to get the ring back and the half that thinks it's hopeless.) Overall it's much more ambiguous in the books than it ever is in the movies; Gollum and Smeagol are both complex people, and neither of them are unaffected by the Ring.

The thing that breaks my heart now, that I don't think I noticed the first time through, is that Gandalf sent three eagles to Mount Doom.

[sigridhr]

Hahaha, re-editing things to death seemed to be Tolkien's favourite pastime.

I don't really consider Smeagol a clear-cut good half either though - (but I will agree that it's not a Smeagol/Gollum argument). After all Deagol's murder was committed by Smeagol, I think. They're both affected by the Ring, and both self-serving and calculating in their own ways.

The thing that breaks my heart now, that I don't think I noticed the first time through, is that Gandalf sent three eagles to Mount Doom.
I'm not crying, I've just been cutting onions. I'm making a lasagna for one.

[j_quadrifrons]

You are quite right that Smeagol isn't Gollum's "good half" - he's just the more, hmm. Civilized half. Smeagol understands things like relationships between people, and doing things even if you don't want to do them. Smeagol would have had an easier time with Bilbo's riddles, I think, because the things they describe are not so far from him as they are from Gollum. That doesn't make him good, just more understandable.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I'm not crying, I've just been cutting onions. I'm making a lasagna for one.
OMG sorry but LET ME LOVE YOU with your Flight of the Conchords references!

[sigridhr]

FotC references are always appropriate.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Wow, I was not aware that the story had been changed! Actually, as I was reading it just now I was thinking 'man, Tolkien had some of this backstory so well thought out, because it matches up so well with LotR' but now I know that it's artificial. That's incredibly interesting though!

[j_quadrifrons]

I am delighted to be able to inform you of this trivia! It does make analyzing this chapter hard, since so much of its effect comes from Lord of the Rings instead of, y'know, the book you're actually reading. But it is nifty. :D

[skadi_of_the_north]

I actually was aware of this change, mostly because the professor I had as an undergrad was a pen-pal of some sort with Christopher Tolkien and this was right before The Two Towers was coming out and she was all in a froth (and, I might add, rightfully so) about how much they had changed...

I agree with you about Gollum being much more, well, cartoony in the films than I ever read him in the book. I think the filmmakers have to exaggerate everything to make the lows lower so that the payoff is higher, but things do suffer and nuances do get hammered into giant grandiose motions as a result. I finally saw the hobbit film two days ago and I seem to recall that Gollum had a little leather pouch alongside his loincloth, where he searched for the Ring, and that didn't seem to be to jarring.

[j_quadrifrons]

A PEN-PAL OF CHRISTOPHER TOLKIEN WHAT. That is AWESOME.

The more I reread the more I realize just how *much* nuance got lost in the movies. Not all of it, but quite a lot, and I think Gollum gets the worst of it. They try so hard to make him sympathetic he just becomes pitiful. (The flashback to Smeagol and Deagol, on the other hand, I think they got just right.)

[j_quadrifrons]

Riddles in the Dark:

Corey observes that Gollum and Bilbo's riddles counter one another - Gollum tells a riddle about something creepy, so Bilbo tells a riddle about something bright and homey, so Gollum gets creepier, etc. etc. In that sense, Gollum wins the riddle game - the last proper riddle is his time riddle, which is pretty goddamn dark.

(I've always been entertained by Tolkien's observation that while Bilbo's question was not properly a riddle, by attempting to guess Gollum has accepted it and is bound by the rules of the game. I believe there's precedent in Norse myth for exactly that situation, actually.)

Tolkien geekery of the day: The Annotated Hobbit notes that someone has written a paper, published in Arda, on Tolkien's use of matches in the canon. (I would dearly love to read it.)

Two more observations from Corey. One: Although quite early on, this chapter is Bilbo's turning point in the story. Although he's incredibly lucky in the riddle game, this chapter marks the point where he becomes more proactive and really begins to think of himself as the professional adventurer that Gandalf advertised him as.

Two: Gollum's last mention in this book is his "shriek, filled with hatred and despair." That caught my eye, given our earlier discussion about despair as the one great evil in Tolkien's worldview.

Out of the Frying-Pan, etc:

I always forget that the wargs talk. (Talk about civilized monsters in unexpected places.) And yet they're still less terrifying than the goblins, because they're not sadistic, they're just giant intelligent wolves.

The goblins' song ("bake and toast 'em, fry and roast 'em") recalls the trolls from earlier. I like how the threat grows: they're still in danger of being roasted, but much more immediately. Also, Tom and Bert and William are pretty cuddly by comparison.

Balin bowing in respect to Bilbo's sneaking has always endeared him to me. <3 (Balin was my favorite Dwarf, and I cried when I read "The Mines of Moria" for the first time.)

[sigridhr]

I wonder as well if the Ring doesn't have something to do with Bilbo's transformation into an adventurer. For the first time he's got all the tools he'll need - Sting and the Ring – and something about the Ring keeps him from telling the Dwarves (a desire to impress?), which in turn earns him their approbation and trust for the first time.

That point on matches is definitely interesting. I second the desire to read that essay.

Also, love the catch of Gollum's despair. He's almost wraith-like in that he's given up, but he can't let go while he's bound to the Ring and the Ring drives him forwards.

BALIN. I LIVE A BALIN APPRECIATION LIFE. I get really upset in Moria.

[j_quadrifrons]

I'm reluctant to attribute Bilbo's adventurousness to the Ring, it seems too positive a change overall. (I am willing to blame the Ring for his decision to not tell the Dwarves about it.) I think it's simpler than that: Bilbo finally got the chance to do something he was good at on this adventure. Yes, he's in a black cave in the bottom of a mountain; yes, he's holding a Gondolin blade and actually kind of wishing there were orcs around so he could see something; yes, he's talking to a terrifying creature that wants to eat him. But he's playing the riddle game. Riddles, he knows. (Sudden mental image of wee Bilbo playing the riddle game with Old Took, awwwww.) And having proven to himself that he can do one thing, he can go on to do others.

I am now curious about Gollum and despair in LotR. Because he does eventually get over it and go hunting the Ring - or do Sauron's minions haul him out from under the mountains? I can't remember, but I think he did take the initiative first.

If you don't live a Balin appreciation life, you're doing it wrong.

(Learned from the appendices: Dwalin lives to 300+ years old. Which means he did not go to Moria with his brother, which means he probably got the news from Gimli after the War of the Ring. Added to the epic list of fanfictions I will probably never write.)

[sigridhr]

Hmm... fair enough. :P

Gandalf says that Gollum himself set out, and then was lured or captured and taken to Barad-dûr. It's explicitly desire for the Ring that sends him out - despite his aversion to light and his fear. It's interesting how desperate he becomes - he's afraid of the goblins getting it in the Hobbit, but by LotR he's referring to the orcs of Mordor as his 'friends', who will help him get his revenge, and they certainly do help him escape Mirkwood. I wonder if you can't still attribute some of these actions to the Ring, in a sense, in the same way Bilbo's lying about it can be put down to it.

Aaaand that's now on the list of fanfics I would desperately like to read. :P

[(Anonymous)]

Having finished Corey, I can now edit my earlier statement to say that this is Bilbo's first turning point in the adventure - this is the point where he starts taking being a "professional adventurer" more seriously. (He will live up to it properly later, when he attacks the spiders.)

Hmm. Interesting that the thing that overcomes Gollum's despair is his desire for the Ring. I think this is his proto-hobbit nature showing through, as hobbits are really the only creatures who react to the Ring in anything like that way. Still, one can't imagine that the Ring wants to go back to Gollum - it'd just end up stuck down in a cave again, which is clearly useless to it. (You're right, I can't remember how much of the Ring having its own personality is a Jackson invention.)

Well, thanks to finding a similar prompt on the kinkmeme, there's a chance I might actually write it now. Hmph. *reshuffles to-write list*

[j_quadrifrons]

Whoops, that was me.

[sigridhr]

The naming of Sting is definitely a turning point, yes. It's Bilbo, then, who explicitly takes charge there.

Well, did anyone other than Gollum bear the Ring for as long, though? I wonder what would have become of Isildur if he'd held on to it as long. I've always wondered about Gollum's aging – after Bilbo gives up the ring he ages rapidly, but Gollum lives a good, what, eighty or so years on? How come he didn't die of old age – or was something about the RIng's continued existence continuing to prolong his life even after he gave it up?

WOOOT. I hope you do.

[j_quadrifrons]

Excellent point; Gollum had the ring longer than anyone except Sauron and it's hard to tell what it did to him, since we never know him when it wasn't affecting him. I think part of it might be that he wanted the ring *back* - when Bilbo gave it up, he really truly gave it up.

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I always forget that the wargs talk.
Me too! I'd quite forgotten that they hold a meeting and discuss strategy when they're waiting for the goblins to arrive. I much prefer them to the mute wargs in the film, which just seem to be more or less like pets of the goblins.

[j_quadrifrons]

Yeah, the movie wargs aren't any more intelligent than dogs. I find talking wargs creepier, particularly when they *do* start to act like dogs when Gandalf attacks them with fire - talking, intelligent things reduced to the status of animals is always creepy.

[(Anonymous)]

Ugh, love these chapters, I have a lot of feelings about Gollum, even though he's kind of a creep.

'He put the ring in his pocket almost without thinking'
I think this just shows that it was always almost Bilbo's ~destiny~ to find the ring here, the whole thing of the ring knowing who it needs to latch it self to and everything. I don't know if there's any significance in him putting it in his pocket instead of immediately putting it on? Although to be fair if I found a random ring somewhere I probably wouldn't just immediately start wearing it!

Gollum. Oh, Gollum. I know Smeagol was supposed to be a somewhat devious kind of character, but I always get the impression that Gollum is sort of strangely innocent? Or maybe it's more that he's sort of child-like. I know he has probably killed many people and is not the nicest of characters, but maybe he's just become so dependent on the ring after all those years in the dark and cold that he's out of control of his own life. He's lonely in the dark cave but he also hates the light and the outside world.
Is it weird that a part of me wants to bake Gollum a cake and take him on a day trip to the zoo or something?

....yes, yes it probably is......

[starliings.livejournal.com]

literally realised as I pressed 'post comment' that I hadn't signed in. Sigh.

[sigridhr]

I join you in the feelings-about-Gollum brigade. Because, yes, LOTS.

I imagine it's a bit like finding a lucky penny... only, you know, eviler. A sort of 'hmm, I'll deal with this later' as you absentmindedly stuff it away to have it turn up when you're doing laundry, or something.

I think of the two Smeagol's usually considered the more innocent, and Gollum the more conniving. Not that either of them are innocent, really. What makes you say Gollum's the more innocent one?

[starliings.livejournal.com]

That's interesting that Gollum's the more conniving one.. I don't know, maybe innocent isn't the right word but he seems sort of child-like to me? Like, using a game of riddles to decide whether to eat someone or not (although he probably was planning on eating Bilbo either way but still), I feel like he doesn't kill people in some sort of Grand Plan of Evilness, but it's more like he's playing some strange game with himself because he doesn't have anyone else. I suppose that still does make him kind of conniving.... I just feel so sorry for Gollum, I probably forgive him too much!

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

Chapter five is so excellent, and so eerie. I think, for me, it's the first part of the book where I get that sort of curiosity itch where I just have to keep reading and I just need answers about what lives in the depths of tunnels, about Gollum and the ring. It's such good writing from a 'page-turner' perspective.

One of my favourite parts of Bilbo and Gollum's interaction is when they're both repeatedly asking each other 'what have you lost?' and 'what has it got in its pocketses?’, and neither of them's answering the other. You can actually feel the tension building up as you see that they're both realising what's happened. It's just so GOOD that I can't really be any more coherent about it.

And I love this line about Gollum, when he realises that he's lost the ring and Bilbo has it: 'such a rage of loss and suspicion was in his heart that no sword had any more terror for him.' I mean, that really speaks volumes about the effect the ring has on Gollum, and how he feels not just when it's lost, but when he knows someone else has it, and has, in his mind, taken it from him.

I wondered if there was any significance to Bilbo's dream at the end of chapter six - it says he's sleeping more soundly on the eyrie than he ever has in Bag End (which could represent him finally taking on the role of 'adventurer' and being comfortable with it, like a few people were discussing above me in this post), but that in his dream, he's wandering into different rooms of his hobbit hole, looking for something that he can't find or remember what it looks like. He's obviously just found the ring at this point, but he's dreaming about loss, so is there some kind of parallel to be made there?

[sigridhr]

I was wondering about the dream too, though I haven't anything intelligent to say about it. I suppose if you take his deep sleep to be his acceptance of his adventury!self, then he could be looking for his comfy!hobbit!self? He's lost the homely and respectable Baggins part of his nature, and stepped out and become a part of the wider world, I suppose. He never truly fits in when he gets home either - he's always that little bit odd, so I suppose he has truly lost the person he used to be in a way.

Or that's total nonsense. :P

[gallifaerie.livejournal.com]

I really like that take on the dream! Yes, he could be trying to unite his two contradictory halves, and he never really manages it. I suppose Bilbo, being an adventurous hobbit, is basically the walking personification of an oxymoron.

[sigridhr]

Hahaha! He is! Well, for a non-Took, I suppose. Though he is quite a bit Tookish.

It must've been so odd for him to just come home and re-settle. I wonder if he hadn't adopted Frodo, if he'd've headed off into the wilds much earlier.

ETA: hit post too quickly. He leaves literally the day Frodo comes of age after all.

[hibari-sensei.livejournal.com]

I wish there was more about Gollum and his grandma. When I was reading it, my mind kept flashing back to this episode of Hawaii 5-0 in which this grandma went to great lengths to protect her serial killer grandson, who was very caring towards her. I know that Gollum hadn't gone over to the dark side since then, but it'd still be interesting to explore their relationship and figure out what happened to her.

Also, I find it interesting that the eagles are portrayed in a more humanoid manner. They have decorum and we get dialogue whereas wolves just howl and rabbit just are food.